Episode 61: Taking the Financial Path Less Traveled with Nick Kosko

[00:00:00] Ben: Welcome to the alt asset allocationpodcast, exploring alternative investment opportunities available to theeveryday investor. Here's your host Ben Lakoff. Hello and welcome to the altarasset allocation podcast. Today's interview is with Nick Kosko. Nick is awealth strategist at create tailwind.

And in this episode, we discuss financial independence takingcontrol of your money and questioning the financial norms, which is a key themehere at the podcast. And we also get into infinite banking, which is using yourwhole life insurance as collateral, which is an interesting proposition.Infinite banking has been called a scam by Dave Ramsey, a name you most likelyknow, but it actually might make sense for some of the listeners out there at,or at least to learn more about it and how it could be used in your financialplanning before you listen, please don't forget to like, or subscribe to thepodcast or even better leave a review.

If you're watching this on YouTube. Hello, please like thevideo and or subscribe to the channel. It really, really helps. All right.Enjoy it. This episode with Nick Kosko.

Nick, welcome to the Alta asset allocation podcast. Excited tohave you on today.

[00:01:17] Nick: Thanks Ben for having me. It's a, it'san honor. And looking forward to getting into the discussion.

[00:01:22] Ben: Absolutely. And before we startedrecording, I saw the world's biggest water bottle. A half gallon of water is onyour desk. Hopefully it doesn't fall off mid-interview because that'd be abroken toe or something terrible.

[00:01:35] Nick: It makes a lot of noise when that metalmetal flask it's the ground.

[00:01:38] Ben: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

I'll edit that out if that happens. No worries. Well, cool.We've we've got a lot to cover reading up on you and what you're interested in.I know that my listeners are gonna, are really gonna enjoy a lot of thesethings, but before we get into that, let's just go over a little bit of your,your background and how you got into doing what you do.

[00:01:59] Nick: Yeah, well, I'm just a curious person.I've got a five-year-old and I always joke that I'm, I'm 40, 44 really going onabout five because there's so much to me in that kid. And the biggest thing is,is he's always asking why. And, and I really appreciate that that curiositythat I see in my kids. And so I was born in a middle-class family, you know, wedidn't, we didn't we didn't need anything, but you know, it wasn't it wasn't alavish life.

And I went to college. I, I thought I always wanted to fly airplanesfor a living fire planes around the world. And that's what I did. But, youknow, as I got into my late, late twenties, early thirties, I just realizedthere's, there's a better way to life than going and working for someone else.And I really got curious about investing in real estate.

And then 2010, 2011 happened that, or the oh eight to oh two 11kind of fiasco financial world. And I, and I lost my job through no fault of myown and that, that really set things in. Motion me going, Hey, I just lost ahundred percent of my rent. And I didn't really care for that. Cause like fromthe real estate investing perspective, I was, I was buying multi-families and Iwas, I was attracted to that because of the economies of scale.

Right. And here I wasn't living that, you know, I had onesource of income and so I just was pursuing things. I was sitting down withfinancial advisors and honestly been, I left every one of those meetings. Iinterviewed like six of them here in town and I left every one of those. And Ithought to myself, something doesn't add up for me with this.

I don't know what it is I'm missing then I'm just simply notsmart enough to figure it out on my own. I had to keep pursuing like, whydoesn't that add up? Right. And one day I was flying with a guy miserable tripin the middle of the night. And, and the best thing we could do to, to keep up,stay awake was we got to talk to him about.

He goes, have you ever heard of infinite banking? And I waslike, I have no idea what you're talking about and it has to do with aninsurance product. And I kept asking a lot of questions about that. I, I had mylife insurance license at the time actually. And and he's like, you're askingall the wrong questions.

And I was like, really? And he's like, just get the book. Sohere I am flying. I'm reading this book, I've tracked down the author to thisbook. There's a, this wise man, 83 years old at the time named Nelson Nash. AndI tracked him down and frankly been it, it really changed my life. Theconnections through that seven, eight years ago of discovering how banks workand then going and practicing what we preach now.

I don't actually fly airplanes anymore. We, we we've we've we,we have more than one source of income now. W we're we're not done. I alwaysjoke that my retirement papers will be my obituary. We're going to live withpurpose. And so now we're just on a mission to free people from what I callfinancial slavery the noise enslaves people.

And that's what I, that's, what I'm passionate about talking aboutis how to, how to free yourself from financially financial slavery. And wealways say Ben money buys choices and choices by his freedom. And I'm just ona, on a quest to have as many choices as I can.

[00:05:19] Ben: Love it. I'll probably steal that onemoney buys, choices and choices by freedom.

It's very good. Curiosity and hard work. These are like my twotop qualities and I think they can make up for a lot of other ones. Those kindsof Trump, all things, so definitely appreciate that. I want to jump intoinfinite banking, what it is, why it's important, all of the things, but I'mcurious, kind of stepping back as you went down this path of like morefinancial enlightenment and, and this financial slavery, and kind of thinkingthrough these and reflecting a little bit more on life.

Are there any books that you read or things that helped shapethis new vision, this new perspective that stick out in your mind? Yeah,

[00:06:04] Nick: I w I would say. Thinking grow rich was,it was a big one for me. I would say that rich dad, poor dad by Robert Kiyosakiwas that one changed my life right there. You know, like Kiyosaki, I'm sureplenty of people in your audience are familiar with, with Kiyosaki, but I mean,he champions himself on being an educator and I love how, you know, culturedoes this.

Right. We tend to follow a herd. Right. And Kiyosaki says thesedisturbing things, which have great appeal to me because my, my instincts tellme when everyone's going left, I want to go. Right. And Kiyosaki just drillsright at that, like that, that story, which is a fictitious story of the rich,the rich dad and the poor dad in his life.

But it really drives home a point. And then he had anothergreat book, which it's a little dated, but the principles are phenomenal. Andthat's his book. Second chance. And I can actually tell you where I was when Iwas listening to second chance and I've listened to it multiple times since so

[00:07:11] Ben: easy, easy couple of books right there.

Nice. I'll link those in the show notes. Rich dad, poor dad wasvery impactful for me and now I'm spending a decent amount of time out in LAand it's very much the the fake rich in your face constantly, you know, peopleleasing the sports car just to impress their friends. But they're in debt up totheir eyeballs and they're freaking out every night I'm sure.

Or they're completely ignorant of it. And they, they just don'tknow. Right. Yeah. Good, good bull markets. Nice for everybody. Yeah. In yourbio, you talk about taking control of take back control of your money. Whatexactly does this mean? Like, from your perspective.

[00:07:52] Nick: Yeah. I think when I was sitting downwith the, with the financial advisors and I don't mean that these people werebad in the least bit, it's just the system.

And I want to, I want to stress that I have great friends thatare financial advisors. The system is about, Hey, I'm going to give you someinformation there and we're going to, I'm going to make a guess on what I'mgoing to make and, and whatnot, and what I'm going to contribute to certainthings. They're going to make a guess and together we're going to hope.

And I don't find that hope is a strategy. All right. And whatit came down to was that I was going to give over control to someone else formy money. Now, why was I willing to do that or contemplating doing that? Andwhy do people do that? Because we've been told that you're not smart enough tohandle your money.

Right? We get no financial education grow. I mean, I love whatsome of there's some, some great authors out there right now, like Connor boyyak. He, he's got this Tuttle twins series about, about educating ourselves athink, see the unseen in the world. And what I just, what really resonated withme was like that light bulb of realizing that the whole financial system isabout someone else being in control.

Okay. The banks, what, what, what does any financialinstitution want? They want, they want as much money as you'll give them. Theywant to hold it for as long as you'll let them. And they want to give back toyou as little as you'll tolerate. Right. And they want to go build wealth withyour money. Okay. So it's leverage, right.

That's what they're doing. We villainized leverage, but that'swhat these financial institutions are doing. Right. They're doing it to uswith. And that when I realized that the, the inner control freak in me, youknow, the, the airline captain in me that that wants to fly the airplane, notriding the back. I realized, Hey, if I just educated myself, I'm just notcomplicated.

Right. That I could do a lot better than someone else could.And just because you tell me that I'm not educated about it or that, Hey, thisgets complicated. I mean, look at it, look at a perspective. Right. Very fewpeople can digest that perspective. Right. So like, what do they do? They, theygloss over and they don't in the trash.

They hear you're you're you take my money. That just doesn'tresonate with me. I just realized that going and working for someone else for30, 40 years at the end of the day, hoping that I don't run out of money. Iwasn't gonna work.

[00:10:41] Ben: Yes, I think part of this, well, I'mcurious why you think people just kind of throw up their hands and say, well, Idon't understand this money stuff.

I'll just you know, go right when the whole herd is going.Right. And, and not think to look left or look around a bit. Why do you thinkthat is like psychologically with us humans and this day and age? Yeah.

[00:11:03] Nick: It's it's really about feeling safe. Imean, have you ever felt like, Hey if all these people go, if I go down, allthese people are going down with me, it's like that safety security, right?

Like it takes her, he

[00:11:17] Ben: comp company. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:20] Nick: It takes, it takes courage, conviction,confidence, and a little coaching, frankly. It's a away from the. To, to do theuncommon, like you're a business owner, that's, that's abnormal in the world.Right. That's not what we're taught to do. You already broke away.

That's what, that's what I'm encouraging my kids to do. Like,Hey, we're not going to do the norm. You may choose to do the quote unquotenorm, but at least you will be educated on options. And I think it's just thatpsychological, I mean, just look at the peer pressure that goes on just you andI could be around our peers.

And if everybody's doing something that's a heck of a loteasier to do that than to go. Ah, no, I'm not going to do that. That thing thatdoesn't set well with me, it doesn't align with my values or whatever it is.It's human nature really?

[00:12:13] Ben: Oh yeah. There's a, a great JosephCampbell quote that I use often, which is the secure way is actually theinsecure way.

And I think that like just frames this perfectly, right.Because I love that this is the secure way and it's very, very insecure. Justlike some to make sure that my listers and everybody understands what is thissecure way, the way that everybody is going. And, and then kind of let's pokesome holes in it.

[00:12:44] Nick: Yeah. So th the secure way is, Hey, I'mgoing to go to go to school. I'm going to go get a degree. I'm going to go getmy job. I'm going to, I'm going to max out my. My 401k. I'm going to go sitdown with a a money babysitter. They're gonna, they're going to take care of mymoney for me. I'm going to go work for someone else till I'm 65.

And then I'm going to re quote unquote retire. And, and thenI'm going to hope that I don't outlive my money for the rest of the day. That'sthe, what's the normal secure way, right?

[00:13:18] Ben: Oh yeah. Sounds like my personalnightmare, but a hundred percent. Yeah. Let's break it down.

Like where are the major inefficiencies or disconnects and howthis secure path the standard path is and where kind of people should beopening their eyes and looking left a few times.

[00:13:41] Nick: Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a lotof things there. I mean, for one thing, like, just think of a normal job,that's giving you a two to 3% increase in your wages every year.

Is that keeping up with inflation right now? Not even closeright now. I mean, we cannot increase the money supply. Like we have the lastyear, what, four, 500% we're in that. We're probably north of that now. And ifwe pass this infrastructure bill, like I know one lady in Congress says thiswill be free, but there's nothing free about it.

There's no free lunches. So like the, the cost of our dollars,it doesn't keep up with the wages that were paid. The things that we can do to,to increase you know, it was like raising rent. If I would real estate raisingthe cost of the goods, if something I'm selling. Right. I can keep up withinflation like that.

So sitting there, just working for someone else while the noiselook, look, the noise is, is selling us things, right? So Ben, you're going tosee roughly 10,000 ads a day. Okay. Do you know what they all have in common?

[00:14:54] Ben: They're going to make you unhappy. Youwant to buy whatever that is there.

[00:14:58] Nick: They're disturbing you, right?

Well, I always just say they're all trying to get money to flowaway from you. And that's the normal message, right? Everybody wants control ofyour money. Like there's not an ad you see on TV, that's not asking for yourmoney. Right. Everybody's motivated by one or two things. According to TonyRobbins pain or pleasure pain always wins.

Right. And so concurrently while we're, while we're having thisnormal job, we're going out and we're financing everything we buy. Okay. Andthere's no, in-between we either pay interest to other people. Or we give upthe ability to earn interest when we pay cash, it's called lost opportunitycosts. So think about the normal person that's watching the TV ads and theywant to, they see the car ads, 0% financing on the car.

Is there anything, is there such thing as 0% interest in thecar?

No, there's no such thing. So they it's trickery. It's likethree-card Monte. So what they're doing is, and to give you an example, therewas an auto dealership here a couple of years ago that actually had an ad inthe paper and it said, Hey, we, you, you can buy this F-150 it was MSRP of$35,000, but it said, Hey, with all these discounts, dealer rebates, you know,all kinds of cash backs, you could get it for $25,000.

And I, and I was like looking at it and it said, or like themost enticing words in marketing, this powerful two letter word or 0% financingfor up to 72 months. And I thought to myself, wow, I've talked about this for awhile, but you all just put it in writing. So I called the dealership. And thissweet voice answers.

And she goes, Hey I said, I just want to confirm, I want tocome by your F-150, but I just want to see, so, Hey, it's 35,000, but if Ibring cash, I can get it for 25,000 with all your deals. But if I, if I want toget your financing, your 0% financing, the car costs me 35,000. She goes, holdon a second. She puts me on hold.

She comes back music's plan. She comes back. The sweet voicesays, yes, that's correct. And I said, wow, that's true. It doesn't sound like0% financing. It sounds like you discharged me 10,000 in interest right away.And there was crickets and she goes, oh, and I was like, okay, thanks. Sothat's, what's happening in the 0% world.

Now there are some exceptions to it. You know, I've seenfurniture stuff and I've called on those. And as long as you pay it off in thefirst year, it's 0%, but there's always catches right there. They're playing agame. Right. But if you don't know the games being played, it's over becausethey're playing the game so well, you don't even know there's a game going on.

So your whole life, this 30, 40 years you're financing all thismoney is flowing away from you. And it's flowing away from you really in theform of interest. My, my old wise mentor Nelson Nash, who wrote the book,becoming your own banker, that's the book we teach out of. He, he figured out afew years ago that 34 and a half cents of every dollar, every net dollar goesto someone else in interest.

[00:18:25] Ben: Wow. What's a, what's a net.

[00:18:28] Nick: So like the dollars after what we comehome with. So let's say I earn a hundred, I actually bring home a hundredbucks. Okay. 34 and a half cents of every dollar that is going to wind up,going to someone else's interest like mortgages, car payments, credit card,that type of stuff.

All right. Okay.

[00:18:47] Ben: Based on the average family or householdin like balance sheet, which is primarily made up of like a home asset and alarge mortgage payment, right. There you go.

[00:18:58] Nick: Okay. Mortgage credit card, you know,the revolving debt we see. Right. And so then concurrently, I'm going andsitting down with someone, a money babysitter who says, Hey, look, I can getyou eight to 10% and your good girl stock mutual fund.

Okay. Well, even in that. A little slight of hand, and I'm not sayingthat this isn't for some people I'm just, these were my realizations and I'mnot telling you not to do it cause that's not my business. It's justunderstanding what it is. And I realized that there's this huge differencebetween while, while I was looking at this, between actual and average rate ofreturn.

So it's like just to kind of step back. So I'm going to earneight to 10%, but my I'm paying 34 and a half cents of every net dollar tosomeone else and interest. I'm sorry, but that's a headwind in your life. Idon't care what I mean, we can, we can drill down on the math. I'm happy toplay the math game, but it doesn't work right.

Our business is called create tailwind, because we're going toshow you how to create this tailwind in your life by recouping all thatinterest. And as I got to drill it down to go back to that eight to 10% this isthat normal thing. So let me ask you, well, we'll walk through it an actualversus average rate of return exercise.

So let's just say that I start with a hundred dollars and Ihave a hundred percent return next year.

[00:20:35] Ben: What do I have? A hundred bucks,

[00:20:38] Nick: 200 bucks. Next year we lose 50%. Whatdo I have?

[00:20:43] Ben: Either lose a hundred bucks. So you'reback

[00:20:46] Nick: in the back, back to a hundred. Thethird year we have a hundred percent return back to the 200 bucks, right?

And the fourth year we lose 50%. Again, I'm back to a hundredbucks. Now what's my average rate of return.

[00:21:03] Ben: Like 75,

[00:21:04] Nick: it's like 20 it's, 25%.

[00:21:07] Ben: Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:21:09] Nick: yeah, yeah. I know why you said it. Soit's actually 25% is my average rate of return. But what was my actual rate ofreturn was actually zero. Yeah. So the average consumer there, they just hadlike a deer in the headlights moment.

Maybe they had to pull the car over and they're having a littlepanic mode moment, but that's what goes on in the sales pitch of the normal,right. You know, go work your eight to five, finance your car. Yay. Look atthe, look at the new furniture you need. Look at that fancy lawnmower. You needall this stuff.

Well, 0% that go, go max out, whatever you can into yourqualified plans. Cause we're going to get you. We're going to, we're going tooutperform and get you 10 to 12%, all this stuff. That's the normal. Right. Andthe problem is most people, by the time they figure out there's a problem it'stoo late. And that part is, is a little heartbreaking.

My parents wouldn't mind me sharing this, but you know, theykind of came to that conclusion about eight, 10 years ago and the retirement,they had followed one of the financial entertainers advice for years. Put moneyaway, went to the financial entertainers certified guy, and he puts them intosome stuff.

And I'm sitting down there at the meeting with them, Ben. And Isaid, so basically you're projecting them to run out of money in like what, 12years. So I got to start writing a check in like 12 years when they're like intheir early seventies and they're super heavy. I was like, talk to him about,you know, smelling up the room that, that did not go over well, but that wasthe reality of what was going on.

But that guy had long made his money on them. Right. So that'sthe normal and that, to me, it's not being honest. Like we, I w we have peopleall the time say, Hey, what's the pitfalls to what you, what you teach happy totalk about them. Like, let's rip it apart. Like people come to us, we say, Hey,we actually encourage you to try to disprove what we teach, because I can proveit with math.

And that's the fun part then?

[00:23:25] Ben: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think backing up,like the reason why everybody overspends and these 0% AP APR deals areconstantly out there is consumption. Runs makes up 70% of the economy. We builtout this entire economy based on the.

[00:23:45] Nick: Principles

[00:23:46] Ben: that you spend a ton, the, the portion ofthe largest amount, right.

Constantly. And that's like propped up all of these industrieskind of supporting each other. But then I think about, okay, if the majority ofAmericans, not just Americans, most people are their savings and their, likethe wealth effect, all of these things are tied to the stock market. Thenyou'll see like further and further government interventions that this thingcan just never drop by 60% because you're going to have old people dying in thestreets because they've made their assumptions based on this thing going up 8%average per year.

Yeah. I think there's a bit of like fighting the money fightingthe money flows and the bigger forces at, at, at B. And I'm not saying theseare the right ways. Sure, but how do you, how do you think through somethinglike that, you're going against the grain, but also like there's 300 millionpeople kind of going with the grain and the governments supporting that grain.

How do you think through that?

[00:24:56] Nick: Yeah, I, I love that. I, I am I'm arebel at heart and I would tell you that our clientele are our rebels at heart.Can, can the program, we teach benefit all 300 million people. Absolutely. Willanywhere close to the majority ever think about embracing this.

Nope, because of what we already talked about, but what we'retrying to do is talk to the people that have, they figured out there's aproblem. And they just don't know the solution. You know, I talked to a CPAearlier today. He reached out to us, he's like, Hey, I got a bunch of clientsthere they're high net worth people.

They don't like wall street. They don't like the banks. They'reAustrian economic fans more leaning that way, which is really what at its corewe're talking about is Austrian economics. And and I think they need to talk toyou guys. Can you show me more about how you work? And so that's who we'retargeting our messages out there for people.

You know, you know, whether, no matter how you feel about theguy, the guy was here on earth and Jesus asks, do you want to be healed? And Ican't heal somebody that doesn't want to be healed. Right. The you're right,the machine is moving a particular direction and I'm not going to stop that.Right.

It is interesting. You know, we talk about the rules that thegovernment makes, right. And we have to operate within those rules and people,whether you like them or hate them, you know, Donald Trump, he was playing by aparticular set of rules in the tax world. Right. He wasn't, he wasn't stealing.He was just using the rules that the government made.

He just did it really well. Right. And got a incredibledepreciation because we love that. Right. We love depreciation as businessowners. But the, in the the last COVID bill that passed back in January, therewas a little change that happened that I guarantee you, 99.9, 9% of peopledon't realize happened.

And it was a change to the life insurance laws. Are you awareof this? Been.

Yeah, so we can go back before 1988 people were putting tens ofmillions of dollars into life insurance contracts as tax shelters. Okay. Andthey'd been used as this for years and years. Well, Congress made a couple ofchanges in eight bypassing, a couple of different rules in 86 and 88. And theycreated something called the modified endowment contract.

And I, you guys have talked about this before. You've had otherguests talk about this and really what it just says. Hey, I can't put a dollarinto a life insurance contract, get a dollar to use right away. That's asimple, very simple way for me to say it. Okay. And so there's this ratio thathas to happen.

And it's really a ratio with the amount of death benefitsomeone gets. Okay, well, we'll call that line. Like if we were to look at anefficiency spectrum of life insurance, we're going to put that MEK line about aquarter of the way off from the left of this line. Well, they made a change.People have asked me before Ben, well, what if they changed the rules?

Would we not be able to do this? And I said, you know what?Every fortune 500 company does what we teach every major bank in America, 53%of community banks, both of the guys that ran for president back in this pastNovember 20, 20 election, half of Congress are these guys really gonna make arule change and cut off their own notes?

Well, I was proved to be correct in January. My wife would tellme that I'm always correct. No, I kid. Right. But I shouldn't be heartbroken toknow that I'm wrong sometimes, but in January, Congress made a change and theymade it so that we can get more money into a life insurance contractefficiently.

They move that mech line towards, towards the edge further sowe can get more money into it quicker. It's a tax shelter. So what, what arethe rule makers note? That's what I'm interested in. What are they doing? The,the, the lawmakers aren't putting money in there. Good growth stock mutualfund, and hoping at the end of the day, are they?

Heck no, they're not. So that's where that's where reallywe're, we're drilling down. I think that was somewhat of an answer to yourquestion.

[00:29:33] Ben: Yeah, that makes sense. And With all ofthese things. I try to understand the other side a little bit as well, or a lota bit, I guess. I mean, I don't know if you've read, you talked about likeinfinite money printing and Austrian economics, but like, have you readStephanie Kelton's the deficit mill myth about MMT being like this savior foreverything.

And I had Jim Rogers on the podcast a while ago and he, herefers to MMT is more money today. It's the best abbreviation ever for it, butit's, it's interesting to try to at least partially understand the other sidebecause certainly are fighting against the grain. But like you said yeah, Ithink there's, there's more to meet the meet the I there.

Okay. Infinite banking, you kind of set it up for this and Ithink it's about time to get into it. What I want to cover is the book thatkind of kick this thing's off. What did you learn from that? And then kind ofgiving like a TLDR, what it is, how it works and why people should know aboutthis.

[00:30:39] Nick: Yeah. Yeah. So becoming your own banker,it's very important to understand. It's not about a product, it's about aprocess. And when I read, remember I was asking, I was asking that guy wasflying with all these life insurance questions. And he's like, I don'tunderstand that because it's based on a whole life product, not a universallife or variable universal life product.

Those things, frankly, I don't mean any insult to anybody thatsells them, but I wouldn't sell those to my worst enemy. They there's suchinherent flaws in them. And I was, I came from the school of one of thesefinancial entertainers who dogs on whole life for, for sport And I realizedthrough my, through my reading that this was about operating how a bank worksand that the most optimal platform was this very specifically designed dividendpaying whole life, a whole life contract with a mutual company.

And it was really important that we did it that way. So thatthe process of how a bank works is, is dumbly simple. Shakespeare said, if weunderstand the players in the play, we'll know what's going on. And so we it's,as simple as this, there's a deposit of the bank, then you go down and let'sjust say that you deposit 10,000 bucks into the bank.

Okay. Now we work with clients that put, you know, say a couplethousand bucks a year in, and we work with people that are putting millions ofdollars a year into their policies. But Ben, I'll ask you a question. If youput $10,000 into the bank to the bank, is that an asset or a liability?

[00:32:18] Ben: It's an asset

[00:32:19] Nick: to them.

Yeah. And that's, that is your consumer brain answering thatand don't feel bad. The only people that answer this correctly or are the CPAs,it's actually a liability because they have to pay it back to us at any giventime. Okay. W w there were actually creditors of the bank technically, butthat's what they have to do now.

How do they turn it into an asset? Well, they'll, they loan itout, right? That's why they got loan officers running all over the place.That's where the magic happens. Okay. So let's just say that we go out and thebank lends out 10,000 bucks, and they're going to sell that money for anywherefrom say three to 28%.

Okay. But I'm going to use an average of 5.2%. So they lend10,000 bucks out at 5.2%. We'll keep them as simple. They're going to collect520 bucks. Okay. Now we deposited the 10,000 bucks and they're going to pay usa generous 0.2%. Now I know that's high right now, but there's a reason why I'musing these numbers.

So they're going to pay us 20 bucks. Now the bank collected 520bucks. They paid us $20. Now how much better did the bank do than we did? Yeah,it's 2600% because 20 goes into five hundred and twenty, twenty six times.Okay. Now here's the problem. They did it with. Again, back to the controlpiece. So the owner made all that money.

Okay. So people want to bang on debt. Well, you can't be debtfree in this country. You got to read the the top. You gotta read the fineprint on a dollar bill. Okay. It's a note, right? That's our whole economy is,is founded on debt. That's what the federal reserve, the money printing, all ofthat is founded on.

So the bank, the bank owner made all that money. All right. Sothere's only three players in that play the depositor, the owner and theborrower. And as anyone in your audience, if they're not their own banker, yetthere are two of those players. They're actually the, the depositor and thebar. Okay. So infinite banking is that all it is is about putting a wall aroundall of that so that we can collect all that interest.

Remember the 34 and a half cents of every nut dollar. I said,go into someone else. Well, what's our life look like if we just return all ofthat back to ourselves. Okay. Now there's different strategies to play withinthat as business owners, as investors, there's, you know, there's all kinds ofdifferent ways to skin that cat, but fundamentally that's the process ofbanking.

And when I read that in the book, I just, honestly, I justslumped down. I was like, wow, it's just that simple. I had no idea. And then Isaid, well, but you know, my old, a financial guru that I listened to on on theradio says, well, whole life is the worst thing ever. Well, then I starteddigging into that and I realized that, well, not so fast that.

Hey, you know, you used to have 70, 80% of people stored moneyin that and those types of things. And there's some good reason why, you know,that they do. It's a very safe place to store money. And if I'm trying tocreate a money pool where I can go finance the emergencies and opportunities inmy life, there's no better place because I don't want my money stored in thebanks anymore.

So that was kind of the, the, the real in the face lesson thatI learned reading that.

[00:36:09] Ben: Harassing. My listeners and looks likeyou probably would recognize this tune of eliminating the middleman andeliminating that mass market between depositing and lending. And this is likethe allure of that tons of people are kind of waking up to at this point thatyou take a hundred dollars worth of crypto, put it in a smart contract, pullout an $80 loan pay next to nothing, to the protocol that you can own.

It's kind of replacing bank shareholders with a moretransparent fee structure that can potentially accrue to token holders. Similargames, but you know, this is, this is kind of the allure of this, this new, newparadigm change that is defy. And I have a loaded. Conversations on that.

But with infinite banking, it sounds like you are storing yourmoney in a whole life contract using that as collateral taking loan bay basedon that value. But isn't there a lot of trust in the underlying insuranceagency that is issuing this whole life policy. And it's kind of just movingyour eggs from a bank that's FDI C insured.

Yeah. They're, they're taking the spread, but you can own thepublicly traded equity and like participate in a portion of that profit shareto another company that is privately owned by shareholders who has to makemoney somehow, like where where's the disconnect here.

[00:37:41] Nick: Yeah. I love that. So thanks for bringingup the FDI because there's some huge problems there.

The FTC only ha they have less than 1%. Cash on hand of thedeposits that they are insuring, let that sink in a little bit.

[00:37:58] Ben: yeah, but that's, that's just the bankingof overlap, but they're the world's drunk on a leverage. Like if everybody wentto any bank or any, there's not enough cash in the system, right?

Yeah.

[00:38:10] Nick: Yeah. So, but the point is people are,they think that their money is really insured, but it's really not like thereality of it is the money that the FDC has is actually not there.

[00:38:24] Ben: The money that banks have or like acompany. I mean, I have a company with a balance sheet and I show a number thatis far different from like the cash that I actually have.

Right. Sure.

[00:38:34] Nick: But remember what happened after the oheight crisis? We PR we bailed out the banks. Okay. So like there was banks thatwere having insolvency issues and the FDI was out of money and we were, webailed them out through the FDI. See, okay, well, the Dodd-Frank act actuallychanged that the Dodd-Frank act of you, if you are really having a hard time togo to sleep, going to sleep one night, read that, read, read the first page ofthat bad boy.

But they actually changed with the C can't receive funding likethat anymore. Now listen, you and I both know anything can change. You know,the banks rule the world. I know that you and I, as creditors to the bank,we're going to be left holding the bag at some point. Okay. That's how, that'show I view it.

Okay. But I just, my point is, is that the FTC isn't whateveryone thinks it is. In terms of. This cash flush insurance company, that'sgoing to just swoop in and save everybody. I mean, there there's limits to theamount of money that your account can have. I mean, I've talked to people allthe time that have millions of dollars sitting in a bank account.

Well, that's well, north of what the FDA is going to insure,right? So let's juxtapose that to the insurance companies. So the insurancecompanies are actually regulated by the states and, and the cash on hand thatthey're required to have. Now, what we do is we're focused on working withmutual insurance companies, not stock companies.

So like AIG 30 days before they just about took down the worldeconomy had the highest ratings you could, you could have, so ratings arebought and paid for by and large. Okay. So those don't really matter to me. AIGis a stock company, and guess who gets the. The shareholders, right? The policyholders are secondary at best in that equation.

So we're using a mutual insurance company. Now mutual insurancecompanies are owned by the policy owners exclusively. There's no outsideshareholders. So when you read the contract we have first rights on the money.Now what's important is to understand the reserves that the, that the insurancecompanies are required to, to hold.

Whereas a bank is required to hold roughly 10% of theirdeposits cash on hand. These insurance companies are actually required to, tocarry north of 7% of all their liabilities and cash on hand. I mean, it'spretty fascinating, right? They are massively cash flush. In fact, they'resitting on currently tens of billions of not hundreds of billions of dollars incash because where they typically go put money as in these, these laddered bondstrategies and where bonds are right now, they're not acquiring them right now,but it's even further to the point that they are massively cash flush.

Last year, the mortality expense for the life insuranceindustry as a whole was up 20 and a half percent. Okay. Now that would soundalarming to most business owners, right? It wasn't, the more people died in2020, it was that different people. People in their thirties and forties andfifties, instead of living out actual where early we ha we, we kinda messed upthe tables a little bit.

So our mortality expense that the deaths weren't aspredictable. Okay. That's what the actuarial tables are based on is that, youknow, to predict the amount of deaths. So the insurance companies are massivelyfinancially solvent. One of the insurance companies that I work with they'reactually the highest.

In the, in the industry, in terms of the reserves, they have113% of their liability sitting in cash. So that's pretty phenomenal when wetalk about their solvency. And when I sit down and talk with the executivesthere a 20 and a half percent increase in mortality expense, doesn't even phasethem. Now, if it went on for 10 years, now, that's a different problem.

And that would, that would impact the entire industry wouldimpact the entire financial world. I mean, most people don't realize thatinsurance companies are the largest finance years in the, in the world. There'sa few re-insurance companies that by and large finance everything. So it's it'squite fascinating to, to dive into that, to that.

And there's a lot more to that, but that's the high levelapproach.

[00:43:00] Ben: Yeah, I think what makes me most uneasyis, is kind of hitching my cart to this private company. Even if it is a wholelike owned by the policy owners. I mean, like with wealth front, for example,which is a robo-advisor with a few clicks, I can use my diversified ETFportfolio of publicly traded equities as collateral and take out a loan forlike 3.5%.

And this is pretty easy and it, I, I can probably take, I don'tknow, 50% of the value or whatever. So I'm able, able to, and Wealthfront istaking that Delta. And that that's fine, but it's a fairly volatile asset thereI'm able to use as collateral and access that. But Yeah, I guess, what are thebiggest risks to doing a process like this with infinite banking?

Like what keeps you up at night or the people, you know, dothis for five years and they're like, Hey, I want out of this thing. I didn'tunderstand this risk. What, what comes up the most with that? Yeah.

[00:44:05] Nick: So I'll touch on one quick thing. You'reright. Most, most like ETF lines of credit or your borrowing ability, 50, 60,maybe 70% of you're lucky.

Right. We're able to borrow a hundred percent. So the, theinsurance company is not lending us anything that we haven't already placedinto the account. Okay. They're placing a lien on my money. My money neverleaves just like your, your ETF portfolio. And then I'm able to go build wealthwith it. Okay.

So what keeps me up at night? Personally, nothing in thatregard. Where people get themselves stuck with this is actually not using themoney. Okay. This is, remember infinite banking is about a process, not aproduct. Okay. So let me ask you Ben. If I were to lend you a hundred milliondollars and at the end of the year, all you had to do was pay me $5 million ininterest, but you didn't have to pay me any principal.

Would you take the loan?

[00:45:18] Ben: It depends. If I think that I couldinvest that and make more than $5, five,

[00:45:22] Nick: 5%. Yeah, absolutely. So let's flip thataround and say, you offered me that I would say, heck yeah, I want that. I wantthat money and I would turn around and go buy $500 million with a real estate.Okay.

And let's just say that I made a, a measly 5% on the 500million. So that's what 25 million. Right. And at the end of the year, I say,Hey, let's meet, I got your check for you and I'll take you out. I'll pay. AndI'm going to give you your 5 million bucks. Well you say, Hey, do you want topay back any principal?

And I say, no, I'm fine. And I keep that money out working.Right. Well, that's the concept, right? All I had to do was pay this simpleinterest. My money never left the account, but my money was safe. I've gotactuarial science on my side. So the fact that they will only lend you 50% ofyour stock account actually speaks to the volatility of that account.

My account can't go down in value.

[00:46:24] Ben: Yeah, is a very probably pull that onefrom the vocabulary can, it's just highly improbable, right?

[00:46:30] Nick: Not in a whole life, not in a whole lifeproduct

[00:46:33] Ben: of 80% of the population dies from somepandemic. They'll probably go insolvent pretty quickly. Right. Highly improbable,but not impossible.

[00:46:42] Nick: Yeah. But remember they have the cash onhand. I'm not saying that the insurance company wouldn't be uncomfortable inthat moment by, by no stretch of imagination. Do I portray otherwise? Right.Remember they have the cash on hand to pay that. Interesting.

[00:46:56] Ben: So the process is I take a hundreddollars. I put it into a whole lot.

Policy, is that a hundred dollars than being invested by theinsurance agency or the insurance company? And if so, is it earning returns? Ifso, how's it invested? I guess, because then the premise is I can take ahundred dollars loan, a hundred percent of that, right. At some low percentageor I pay interest.

Okay.

[00:47:25] Nick: Yeah. Yeah. So the insurance companythat you're right, they're taking our premium dollars and they're going to putit, they're putting it to work in the 30 to 40 year laddered bond strategy.That's, that's, they're big, they're big operating investments

[00:47:41] Ben: on bonds or debt, right? The 64 fortiesdead, like the F 60 year bull market in bonds is over.

Like, so you do a 30 year laddered bond portfolio. You'regetting like 2% maybe.

[00:47:55] Nick: Yeah. So that's, that's awesome. Youspeak to this, so yeah. These insurance companies still have bonds that are,are pretty decent. You know, you look back 30, 40 years, we still have somegood bond returns. So it actually speaks to the cash on hand at the, that theinsurance companies have, they are, they are able to invest in other asset classesin smaller percentages, but it actually speaks to the law change in Januarywhere they're asking for more flexibility in the return that we, that theyguarantee.

So right now the insurance companies guarantee a 4% internalrate of return. Okay. Now I want to be very clear with you and your audience.This rate of return is not what I care about. Okay. The rate of return I careabout is what I go do with the money. Okay. I'm looking for a secure platform.To be my own banker with.

Okay. Is that clear with you, Ben?

[00:48:54] Ben: No, totally makes sense. Okay. I give ahundred bucks. I'm guaranteed 4%, which might change. Then I take a hundreddollar loan against this hundred dollar earning 4%. What, what sort of interestrate do I pay on that?

[00:49:08] Nick: Well, you're going to pay 5%. Okay. Ingeneral there's Durance companies that are charging higher and lower, I'm justusing rough numbers.

[00:49:17] Ben: So basically at the end of year one, I'mnet paying $1 in interest, assuming that a hundred dollars goes up by 4% and mya hundred dollars I've loaned also goes up by five. I'm net paying $1, 1%. Sofor this to make sense, I need to invest my cash and make sure that I can earnmore than 1%. That's like the benefits of doing something like this.

And then the risks would be that I'm trusting a third party alife insurance company, even if they're solvent all the things I'm trustingthat they're able. Honor that 4% that they're constantly playing. If they'redoing bonds and maybe they add other assets or whatever yeah. I'm payingsomebody else to make financial decisions on that that, that hundred dollarswith the insurance agency company.

Yeah.

[00:50:10] Nick: Okay. Yeah. That's that's correct. Yeah.And, and really what they're leaning on is their, their ability to predict themortality expenses to control their expenses. We're using mutual companies thataren't pressured by the stockholders to do things for the next quarter. Right.They're actually able to, to use like the things that you and I are craving forbusinesses to do is to think longterm, like the culture's become, Hey, I justgot to do this for the next earnings report.

Right. We'll cut off our nose to spite our face we'll deal withlater, later, right? The insurance companies actually get to do this where theyget to think longterm and not worry about their quarterly earnings call. Right.And that part I, I appreciate. So they, we they're able to predict their costs.We use the mutual end companies.

The ones that we've gravitated to are typically Midwesterncompanies that have a lower operating cost. So yes, you're correct. There arebonds that aren't returning much of return. Okay. But they're juxtaposedagainst. Having very predictable expenses and the mortality expenses andkeeping their operational costs very low by where they operate.

[00:51:23] Ben: I'd be curious to how the taxes aretreated and hashtag not financial advice, not tax advice, get your ownaccountant or a lawyer or financial advisor, all the things, you know, but theinterest that 4% interest, how is that treated from a personal income taxperspective and then that interest that I'm paying for the loan on the wholelife amount is that deducted from my taxes?

How is that treated just to high level.

[00:51:52] Nick: I love it. So I was just, before you andI got on, I was talking with my CPA as we're wrapping up my taxes here ahead ofOctober 15th. And we were talking about just this so I can actually share whatshe said through our conversation. So the 4% that we're earning it's tech, it'stechnically tax deferred, but if you do this, how we are showing you, you won'tpay taxes on it because you won't ever withdraw that money out of the account.

Okay. We'll borrow the money out over time. Okay. That's alonger conversation. Okay. But remember my money's growing in a tax shelter. Iput, I put post tax dollars into it. Okay. Now the use of the money. If Iborrowed money at 5% to go buy my groceries. Okay, well, that's not a taxdeductible event, right. But if I go acquire a business, now we're ontosomething.

Because if I went and borrowed money from a bank, That thatinterest would be deductible. Well, remember the insurance companies are justlarge financial institutions. So the interest that I paid to the insurancecompany is tax deductible. So Ben, my money is growing. I'm gonna, I'm gonnasay quotes tax-free in my, in my policy because I'm not going to pay tax on it.

Cause I'm not going to withdraw my money. Okay. I'm alwaysgoing to borrow it. The use of the money is a tax write off. Okay. And I'mgoing to acquiring things like real estate or businesses where I get todepreciate things. I mean, real estate investors love the appreciation. Right?I love a negative number on my K one.

Okay. I need that to offset other things. So I have acquiredthings that are tax beneficial to me. Okay. And I'm doing this. So like mymoney is working multiple times. That's the paradigm shift. Most people havethought about my money, either sitting in my checking account or buying thisreal estate. And I, we are drilling into people.

Your money can work multiple ways. Just like you talked aboutdefy. Fascinating. Okay. I've partook in that before. All right. My money issitting in my insurance policy and I can use it. It's growing multiple times.And then as I pay back the loan, what am I going to do? Just like the bank. Soyou take a mortgage from the bank when you pay.

So your $2,000 a month mortgage, what does the bank do withthat payment? Well, they lend it right back out. Okay. That's velocity of.Okay. They don't sit money there. Okay. That's why we're constantly looking forreal estate and business opportunities, cashflow assets, things that I canensure. Okay. So that's, that's kind of like this, you can almost look at likemultiple columns happening all with the same dollars that are in that policy.

[00:54:53] Ben: Oh, that totally makes sense. Okay. Ijust did a quick Google and if you type in infinite banking scam, which is likea way that I normally check crosscheck anything Dave Ramsey, who is a prettyprominent person within the personal finance space, well-respected by a numberof people seems to think infinite banking is a scam.

I'd be curious how you, how you react to that or kind of whatthe pushback misunderstanding perhaps from one side or another would be.

[00:55:26] Nick: Yeah, they've cracked me up because I'velistened to them a lot. And Dave is, is he's got his seven step program orhowever many steps. He's gotten a thing he cannot change.

Right. He is for a very narrow set of. In my opinion. Okay. Heis a, he's a financial entertainer. He and Susie Orman are frankly justfinancial entertainers. Okay. And he, he he'll latch onto one little thing inthere by and large taken out of context. And he just drills on that. Everyonethat knows Dave knows that he cannot stand whole life insurance.

Okay. I understand why, because typically life insurance wholelife is sold. If you put in a hundred dollars, you get zero to use right away.Okay. But that's not what happens later on and nor is that how we sell it.Okay. It is about the, he completely ignores the process of banking. Dave alsohas a fatal flaw in his teaching is he does not value.

The cost of cash. He puts no car, no value on the cost of cash.And what I loved about Robert Kiyosaki is he said, savers are losers. And ifyou understand the printing, press you and I already touched on inflation. Youcannot have money sitting. You are dying. Dead money. Motion is a law of God.If, if air doesn't flow through your lungs, you die.

If blood doesn't flow through you, you die. If water becomesstagnant, it becomes poisonous. You can't drink it. And if money doesn't move,it's dead. The banks understand this ever heard of the term money follows thesun. Great. So to your audience, when a bank closes and New York lends money toChicago banks, when the, when the Chicago banks closed, they went to the Denverbanks.

And so on, he literally goes around the world. That overnightlending is about them keeping that 10% reserve going, okay. Money has to flow.So like when, when our inflation, our real inflation may be in the neighborhoodof 15% right now. Okay. Good luck. Getting anybody to be honest about it, butjust look at the cost of your groceries look.

And if you think that, oh, my bread cost hasn't gone up, orthat bag of chips, hasn't gone up in price. We'll compare how much, how manychips, the, the volume of chips in that bag. Now to five years ago, in somecases we're seeing stuff that's half the volume now than it was five years ago.So Dave completely is missing the point of what we're teaching it's about, notjust the interest.

I agree with him, be responsible, live within your means, havesavings. Okay. But giving, yeah, he's a little frustrating with how he justignores the, the points of, of this, but that whole cost of cash, you know,let's do an example, Ben, to prove that a dollar has value. So if I were tooffer you for 31 days compensation, a penny, and that penny is going to doubleevery day for 31 days.

Do you know what it is at the end of the month? Any idea howmuch. Yeah, well, on date on day 20, what is a day 22? You'll have $21,000.Okay. So what does Dave teach us to do? He teaches us be good savers. Save upand on date day 22. Take your 21,000 and go buy your car. Okay. Go pay cash forthat used car. I'm totally down with that.

Okay. But what happens to my penny? Doubling it starts over.And if I start over on date day 23, by the 8 31, I have $2 and 56 cents, $2 and56 cents. When I keep interrupting my compounding. Okay. Now let's juxtaposethat to it. That if I never interrupted my compounding on day 31, I'll have$10.737 million.

Now that number gets my attention. Now, why does Dave keepignoring that? So with the whole life policy, the way that we set it up, I'mgoing to re I'm going to get both. I'm going to get to put that money in there.It's going to save, it's going to grow for me uninterrupted, and I'm going toget to go back har and I'm not going to interrupt my compounding because rememberwhen we take, when we use our policy, we, we borrow against it.

We, they put a lien on our money. Dave absolutely ignores them.

[01:00:24] Ben: Yeah, and that makes sense. But all ofthese things are based on the premise of actually finding great investmentsthat yield higher than the cost of capital and being able to like overleverageyourself. We've talked to like the public markets are shit.

All assets are inflated beyond belief, like even good realestate is being massively purchased by private equity companies. And you'refighting with you know, the the couple down the street that wants the nicebackyard for Fido and they don't care that it's a negative cap rate and from aninvestment standpoint is terrible.

Sure. Agree with you. And, and like, I think with it's realestate scrape because, you know, you get the depreciation, but like there'salso this unrealistic expectation that it's truly passive. Like I just buy ahouse for a hundred thousand bucks and I have a renter that's doing a thousandbucks a month and it's, they're just going to pay down my mortgage and all thisthings it's going to be great.

Where the key piece of this whole puzzle is finding investibleassets that make sense. Not looking at the public markets, like where, whereshould people be looking for these sorts of things?

[01:01:43] Nick: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of, of who not.Like who has the skills and the know how to go get what I want.

So I'd love to partner with people on things. So whether it'sreal estate investments, finding people that have great off-market strategies Ithink that that's where the real estate investment opportunities are the onesthat I've purchased that have been, have bore good fruit have been off marketdeals.

I'm looking at one right now. We're actually looking at it froma, there's a business approach with it. And we're, we're working on the EBITDApredictions for that, for that. And whether or not that's a good purchase ornot, again, it's an off market deal. Who, you know, like finding people thatalready have what you want, right?

Like Tony Robbins says, find people that have what you want. Golearn all you can from them and partner with that. There's, you know, throughall adversity comes amazing. Innovative. Right. So the, the financial strugglesthat people are realizing that we're having, I mean, that's, that's, what'shelped birth cryptocurrency, right?

So behind cryptocurrency is blockchain, the blockchaintechnology. Most people just think it's about Bitcoin and replacing ourcurrency, but it goes well beyond that is I know, you know, and so findingexperts in that field and finding solid advice those are people that I seek outto partner with.

We bought a franchise a year ago. We sought out a franchiseconsultant that helped help those acquire the franchise that had the things init that we wanted. So I can tell you that we really seek out the passivecomponent because we're partnering with people. I own real estate that I'venever seen before the tenants to have no idea what my phone number is or who Iam.

Right. That's a truly passive. Investment for me. I've done theflipping where I was swinging the hammer before. I'm not at a place in lifewhere I'm going to do that anymore. But I really place a tremendous amount ofvalue in partnering with people and trusting people. Relationships areparamount to me and that's that's how I've proceeded and found success.

Yeah,

[01:03:58] Ben: a hundred percent. As often said, you'rethe average of the five people around you, but what is often, often notmentioned is you can expand that group if you live in, you know, some tiny townby books and potty okay. Podcasts and all of these sorts of things. And that's,that's part of what we're trying to do here is open people's eyes to some ofthese less often traveled paths toward like this elusive financial independencething that we're all kind of going forward.

[01:04:26] Nick: Yeah. We're always, we, we tell people,Ben, we're always just trying to show people how to get their passive income tomeet or exceed their ideal standard of living.

[01:04:35] Ben: Oh yeah. That's the goal. Oh yeah.Awesome. Well, Nick, this has been extremely educational and helpful. Before wego, where can listeners find out more about you or about what you do, where doyou want to send them?

[01:04:48] Nick: Yeah, two best places go to createtailwind.com. If you want to learn more, there's some resources on there. Ifyou want to to talk with me, I promise we have a no hassle guarantee. We'relooking for people that want to learn. You won't hear me hassling youwhatsoever, but if you just hit the contact me button, we'll reach out to you.

Or you can listen to us on our podcast, breakaway wealth wheremy partner and I have these very similar conversations with people. Those arethe two best ways to find me. And I appreciate then having the opportunity toserve your audience and help them understand how banks work and, and how theycan use those same strategies to build wealth in their lives.

[01:05:28] Ben: Awesome Nick. Well, I'll be sure to linkup all of those things really appreciate having you on today. Thanks so much.

[01:05:35] Nick: That's a budget, but didn't have a greatone. You too.

[01:05:38] Ben: There, you have it. Thank you forlistening. Really appreciate your support. Show notes, transcript links, andmore can be found on our [email protected].

If you'd be so kind, please share this with anyone you thinkmight be interested or get some value from this conversation. If you have anyquestions or comments, please reach out. I'm always happy to hear them. Lastly,if you're on YouTube, please like the video or subscribe to the channel. Ifyou're listening to the audio version of this, please subscribe to the podcastand or leave a review.

This really helps more people find the podcast. And I reallyappreciate it. Thanks again, and hope you have a fantastic day. Happyinvesting.

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