Episode 28: Macro Outlook with Marc Faber: The Billionaire They Call Dr. Doom

Ben: [00:00:00] Welcome to the alt asset allocation podcast, exploring alternative investment opportunities available to the everyday investor. Here’s your host Ben Lakoff.

Hello and welcome to the all to asset allocation podcast. Today’s interview was an absolute treat for me with Mr. Marc Faber. Do you  know who Marc Faber is?

He really needs no introduction. But for those of you who don’t know, he’s a Swiss based investor who resides in Thailand, someplace near and dear to my heart. And he’s the publisher of the gloom boom and doom report newsletter. And he’s also acting as an advisor and fund manager and involved in a number of investment funds focused on emerging and frontier markets.

I really enjoyed this interview. It was so insightful to learn from somebody who has watched global financial markets for as long as somebody like Marc has. We covered a lot. In this conversation, it actually was really, really fun. We discuss his macro outlook for financial investments and go into detail on topics such as quantitative easing gold, us equities, real estate. And more.

Before you listen, please don’t forget to like, or subscribe to the podcast or even better leave a review. If you’re watching this on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and, or like the video, this really helps more people find it. And I really appreciate it. Marc famously called the 1987 stock market crash. And it’s been an investor for a very long time. Don’t miss his keen insight on where the world could be going. Enjoy this episode with Marc Faber, doctor doom himself. Enjoy!

Marc. Extremely excited to have you on today.

Marc: [00:01:45] Thank you very much. I’m very pleased you guest on your show.

Ben: [00:01:50] Well, I know nearly all of my listeners know who you are.

You called the 1987 crash which was quite significant, perhaps my favorite is from. A good book, Tony Robins, Matt money mastering the game. You were mentioned as Mark, the billionaire. They call Dr. Doom. Now you run gloom, boom doom.com. And I have a fantastic newsletter. So really welcome to the show.

Marc: [00:02:17] Thank you.

Ben: [00:02:17] You’re currently in Chiang Mai Thailand, correct?

Marc: [00:02:20] Correct? Yes, I live here.

Ben: [00:02:22] Awesome. I’m also a big fan of Thailand. I lived in Bangkok for four years. So Chiang Mai is wonderful except for smoky season, but it’s a, it’s a wonderful little pocket for sure.

Marc: [00:02:35] The drawback to smokey season.

Ben: [00:02:37] Yeah. I definitely want to get into Asia and emerging markets and perhaps even Thailand, but yeah, I wanted to start off today with more of a macro outlook paint, paint me an overall picture of what’s happening in the world because everybody just keeps saying it’s unprecedented times, and this is so weird. Paint me the picture of the macro outlook. According to Marc,

Marc: [00:02:58] Money printing, which we have at the present time. Has precedence, but it’s unprecedented that it’s coordinated among all the countries. You got a sense of, they are currency fluctuations. And we’ll talk about this in a minute, but basically if everybody prints money the outlet is that the money flows into assets.

And that cash and money that has a very low rate of interest, or actually in some cases, negative interest rates. This is unprecedented in the 5,000 years of human history that is recorded. We never had negative interest rates. This is the first time it’s a form of expropriation make no mistake about this.

It’s kind of an expropriation. Or a wealth tax has been discussed in the economic literature anyway. And what is also unprecedented and actually kind of ironic the world was sold to the idea that democracy equals freedom. I got to tell you having lived in many countries and traveled all over the world, I’ve seen a lot more freedom.

In countries that didn’t have a democracy, then what the diotic governments have done in the Western world nowadays, namely, that is unprecedented. And this is to shut down the entire economy. This is an infringement into people’s personal rights. It didn’t touch me. So I’m not talking because. Out of my book, but say someone has a bakery.

Someone has a grocery shop. Someone has a restaurant to barber barbershop, whatever it is. And he’s ordered to close down his business by the government in a democratic society. This, in my opinion is unprecedented. And they’re huge infringement into people’s personal freedom. I mean, a Milton Friedman who is never quoted by today’s economies, if you have no, because he was anti government, anti big government and anti intervention explained exactly in freedom to choose.

And freedom and capitalism, how society works and that the base system is that people take the personal responsibility and are let alone by the government to function as they please. But this is exactly what has happened.  Client economy and manipulated economy by central banks by the treasury departments of countries.

And by economists and the politicians and it’s sold by the media probably as necessary is completely ludicrous. I have to say two events happened in my life, which I never thought would ever happen. One is negative interest rates because I started to work in 1970. Treasury bond deals were at 6% on the way to 15.8, 4% in 81, they went essentially to zero.

I mean, not the treasury bond, but they wouldn’t close to zero, but in Europe we have negative interest rates in Germany, France, and Switzerland. Even Portugal has briefly negative interest rates. It’s crazy,

Ben: [00:07:02] even right. Junk bond. Essentially.

Marc: [00:07:05] The August thing I never sold in my life would happen is that they would shut down the economy.

And basically they’re shooting themselves in the foot because you know, people grow tired of these government interventions.

Ben: [00:07:20] Yeah, you’ve talked about this before, but essentially the system is bankrupt. The only way out is to print more money, bigger governments printing just happens forever. The rates are low forever, but I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on these new Experiments like it, it seems like that things there’s actually a German saying that I learned from Ronnie souffle that says when the, when your worldly reputation is in tatters tatters the opinions of others hardly matters.

It’s in German. And I obviously don’t know how to say it, but it’s this mindset of like, everything’s broken, let’s just try something new. MMT. I’d be curious. what are your thoughts on MMT? Something like this as, as the light at the end of the tunnel for us?

Marc: [00:08:07] Well, I mean, I think that some form of MMT has been practiced for a long time.

I mean, the printing of money is kind of a. Hit an MMT and also the whole, the entire social programs is some kind of a MMT. Now they have used the crisis as kind of a excuse to accelerate the introduction of basic income. And I think the idea, they always talk about the great, great reset as it is not.

The reset is a gradual sliding into a totalitarian society where there are some people that will run the world. And you, and I will have to adjust to this reality. I mean, yesterday I had the visit of a general from Myanmar is in charge of the border area. We said, Mark, if you’d like to come any time, you can come.

And we have very strict quarantines here in Thailand. But he flew in from Tokyo and he slept one day in Shanghai. And then he came to see me the next day with his car today. He is in Bangkok. Tomorrow is coming back and then he’s going back to me on Mar.

Which is crazy,

not a billionaire, but by Miramar standards, he’s a big shot is a general. I mean, I call him Narita and he calls me Mark, but he is in Leon, Mara general in charge of the border area, the different States he’s in charge of caring. And then North of current is the Cheyenne region. And then cut chin. This is up North.

Where in Myanmar, you go up to close to 6,000 meters.

Ben: [00:10:36] That’s insanely high. I just had a friend go back to Bangkok and, you know, you’re quarantined in a, basically a hotel that they cater in all the food for two weeks and you can’t leave and you get tested every three days. to have that privilege is, is, is something right?

And I think that’s, that’s where we’re going. As, as a government. So that means bigger governments, but you’ve also, you’ve mentioned, the U S is at danger of losing its global reserve currency status that but looking at these othergovernments, these other fi currencies, they don’t offer a good second option. Right? So where, where do you see this going? Gold back currency. What’s what’s kind of the end game there.

Marc: [00:11:17] This is a very good question. I mean, when you look at the increase in asset prices since 1981 for balls and 82 for equities, the whole eighties for real estate and for art prices and so forth and so on, I think people are fleeing the cash market.

In other words, The sophisticated people, they know that the purchasing power of money is going down and down much more, or at a much more rapid pace than what the government is telling you. With their manipulated CPI in the head. That is a complete joke. Nobody lives by a CPI that is compiled by the government.

Yeah, don’t worry. But what you have to do in, in my opinion, you have to have reduce your position in us assets, just to compare the performance of the us S and P 500. Compared to the footsie index in London for the last hundred years, the footsie in London has never been as cheap as now compared to the S and P 500.

If you compare emerging markets to say the NASDAQ 100 index or the New York fan index, which also includes. Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Facebook and Googles, and Tesla is also in that index. Add it

Ben: [00:13:06] just to make it even more ridiculous. Right.

Marc: [00:13:09] So if you were to compare that index to say, emerging markets, emerging markets are dirt cheap, and this is my view at the present time, you know, we live in a two tier world.

We have hardly ever had this wealth inequality as we have. Now. There’s a huge wealth inequality between the billionaires and I’m not a billionaire. But I’m a billionaire in Zimbabwe dollars.

Ben: [00:13:40] May, maybe the me and my local currency too, or Vietnamese dog, for sure.

Marc: [00:13:49] anyway, we have these very wealthy people and then we have the masses essentially that are struggling. And we have very precise statistics. These are not statistics that have been doctored young people today. They earn less in real terms than the parents when they were 35 years old. You know, there was say, when I was 35 years old, I earned more than say young people today at 35 years.

Now there are some exceptions, you know, that, that. I have a friend. He founded a high-tech company software. He’s a billionaire at 32. Yeah, no, I mean, he’s an exception, not the rule. And then number two, we, the boomers, we add the opportunity to acquire Wells because asset prices were going up and interest rates were high today.

A young guy. He has to buy a house. He has borrowings up to here. E-comm the four out of his wage to buy out. But maybe he has parents that are generous, you know, and stuff, stuffing money at the back into his pockets. They can buy the house. I mean, I recently not recently, but for the last few years I went to a conference in America with wealthy people.

And I always say, ask, you know, what are you children doing? And so it was, it was, yeah, they’re doing this and that. And I asked him, are you also supporting them? Yeah. They all bought for them a condo or they pay the rent or something like this. So is it different world? And I think that the U S. Lost a lot of prestige economically, and also politically under Mr.

Obama and Mr. Trump, you know, I mean, the world is a bit after having watched the elections in the U S world, doesn’t seem to think that it’s very wise to have American. And observers who then judge, whether the election was fair

Ben: [00:16:13] yeah, it’s this, so this is being recorded first to December and we’ve just, well, who knows when this thing will actually end, these structural issues.

asset prices all time high as they’ve been pumped up from monetary policy and quantitative easing. The debt levels, government and, and con like individuals across the world are at all times high, like were over, leveraged on everything, growing massive governments. We’re moving towards these totalitarian.

I mean, what, how does an investor think through this? Like my logic just says that. Wealth tax and inheritance tax. And these things will, will ratchet up and we’ll try these new monetary experiments like MMT, but how does one position a portfolio accordingly? And I know this is the billion dollar question, right.

But I mean, what’s, what’s most interesting for you in these times.

Marc: [00:17:11] It depends. You see, I’m now at an age where I don’t really have to multiply my assets because I’m not sure I can take anything along. When I moved to a doctor, there may be happier or less happy world. Maybe we all here in hell or maybe DRC is already having, I don’t know, maybe for some people it’s Evelyn, for some people it’s health, we don’t know.

But the point is for a young person, the best advice I can give is to get. Education in some field where he becomes kind of an expert and he can sell that expertise to a list of people that need the services and are happy to pay for quality. So I look at your house and I see the staircase, in my opinion, it’s well-built.

You understand if you are a young guy, unless you kind of a really academically inclined when I grew up, maybe it was a disgrace to be a carpenter or an electrician or a somewhat sanitary, insulator and so forth. But nowadays. I think if you’re a great electrician and you can put in the electricity, whites in my office in such a way that, that don’t have our show.

So outages, I’m happy to pay for it. Or if you can look after my motorcycles or my cars, then I’m happy to pay for it. I don’t need another kind of a not case. Dude, advise me on spirit tool, goods and so forth. I have enough, but people that really do something like I have here, a PC. Okay. No trouble. If anything goes wrong, it’s not so easy to find someone who can fix it.

Sorry. My dogs are barking at this time. It’s someone who comes home. From the market, you know, he has a small Stoll, which he drives to the market around this time. He comes back. That’s quite good. Yeah. And then they at the dogs, for some reason, they always bark anyway. So I agree. You have a computer say if you know someone who you can call and say, look, I have a problem here.

Can you please come over? And he can solve that problem. I’m willing to pay for it. It’s not difficult. It’s actually quite difficult to find someone. Yeah, absolutely. That’s the one it’s specialized in this software. The other one is that software with someone who could just do simple things and fix a notebook both mechanically and also software issues.

You know, there aren’t that many that do that.

Ben: [00:20:39] Yeah. I think that’s very valid life. It advice, right? Invest in yourself. This has the largest ROI, especially for young people, but once you start hit hitting that stride and earning these assets, I mean, I’m in the U S now after years abroad and, I’m a fan of flag theory and geographic diversification own a property in different countries and have your money spread out in different currencies and things like that. But a lot of my friends here don’t don’t think like that and they’ve, they’ve saved up dollars and they’re working for an American company and they have their 401k K and American equities, and they want to deploy this us dollar asset base into something.

And, Where would you, how would you advise somebody like that? Knowing what you know, that’s great.

Marc: [00:21:27] I can tell you something. I remember when I studied that was like in 65, 66, I went to Spain and as a student, you don’t have much money, but Spain was very cheap for us. Who came with Swiss francs, but there were American soldiers that were based in Spain, ordinary soldiers.

They lived like Kings because the dollar was worse at the time, close to 80% more. Then it was worse in 1980 after 1971, when Nixon went off the gold standard. The down the toilet tumbled by 70% against the Swiss Franc before 71, one us dollar boat for Swiss Franc 40 before 20, afterwards, one to one. And when I see this.

And that’s why I always say, you know, the peak us prosperity for the majority of people. We’re not talking about the billionaires, but the majority of people was probably someone sometimes in the late sixties before the dollar devaluation began and offers standards of living didn’t increase much.

And the poverty rate didn’t go down after. The various social programs, this Milton Friedman showed very clear anyway, but I would say anyone who has money and you should talk once to some people that came from Argentina. There’s a lot of Argentine people. They lost the money. Not only once, maybe three times.

I have a friend he launched is very smart. He launched a company in Argentina that basically trades stocks electronically expanded throughout Latin America. And then he moved to the U S and he has a Bitcoin, I mean the side cryptocurrency exchange, his family lost so much money through the various evaluation.

He helped me, like, I don’t want to do after the same situation again. And he doesn’t say, you know, you have to put all your money, they call it. He said, just put money that you can afford to lose maybe 5% of your money or 3% intubate cards. We don’t know it could go up a lot, but he wrote an article for me for my report, but that was two and a half years ago.

When Bitcoins had gone to 19,000 and then they were back to 3000. So the timing was very good. I’m not sure I would rush into Bitcoins now, but the point is an American show have some assets in non us dollars to have everything in us dollars. Is equal to trust the U S government who on earth would trust the Washington clowns.

The criminals, the mafia has taken over Washington. It’s worse than a mafia organized because they have no sense of honor the mafia. That sense of honor.

Ben: [00:25:13] it’s akin to being an employee of Enron. Right. And having all of your savings in life savings in the Enron stock, you’re, you’re, you’re tethered to one, one car and that, that thing, and there’s always the.

Put all your eggs in one basket and watch it closely, but that’s not a right basket to put it in, unfortunately, wealth inequality is at all time highs, like you said. I liked the conversation about Bitcoin. So for me, Bitcoin offers a life raft to hyperinflation and. Government compensation, which should be two massive worries for the ultra wealthy.

But I mean, there’s other ways of losing your wealth. If you’re very wealthy, like Wars, I’ve heard you say Wars, revolutions in plagues, which is very valid, but the wealthy doesn’t want to give up their wealth. Right. how does this wealth disparity discrepancy work its way, at least a little bit more towards the mean?

Marc: [00:26:09] Well, the thing is well, don’t want to lose their Wells, but I’ve just written two papers. One was about, you know, what is socialism? I described the theory of angles and marks and . And numerous other socialist  petitions. And then I wrote the anatomy of revolution and this deals with how was it possible that there was a Bolshevik revolution in Russia and especially how was it possible?

That’s so many Wellsy Americans and especially intellectual Jews choose to support the Bolshevik regime. You understand the initial group of people that was running Russia, Lenin and so forth. They were mostly of Jewish origin. Not styling, starting wasn’t, but the first people that were running the secret service that really created these horrible, forced labor camps, the gulags.

And so a lot of them, some were Jewish intellectuals or were supported by Jewish intellect. And that will always be a mystery to me. But actually Schumpeter, as you know, he was kind of an Outre capitalist. He wrote about business cycles and he wrote about the corporation and the capitalistic system.

And then a month before he died. I think it was 1950, was invited in New York to give a speech. And in the speech, he explains that the capitalistic system is so successful that it will automatically lead to socialism because he observed, first of all, the intellectuals. In a highly cite, highly competitive society.

I left a little bit behind that. They do. Okay. But they don’t become billionaires. So the intellectual class is actually in favor of more interference by the government and more in the favor of distribution of wealth and divorce. But there are other

academics that have said socialism comes out of the capitalistic system as the reaction to it. So that’s more marks angles. So the different series, the way they’ll see people, they think. And they support the socialism because they used to be, they think they’re elite. They think they will be swimming at the top and that they will be running the show.

When, in fact, in most cases of a revolution or a change into socialism, it’s not peaceful. The ruling class, they get their heads chopped off with the DOD. ACRA frightened in America is built the kiosk.

Ben: [00:30:12] He’s built it already. Just, just preparing for this.

Marc: [00:30:15] He’s a very good Workman. He’s built. He actually built it for Hillary Clinton, but hasn’t been able to use it.

Ben: [00:30:23] He’s a great carpenter turning out. These guillotines left

Marc: [00:30:28] carpenter. You can fix anything. You know, it’s a great work human. I wished I had these skills.

Ben: [00:30:34] I’m going to put it on my list for sure, because I’m not that handy around the house, but rest assured I’ll do another call with you and  I’ll, I’ll show you something that I built with my own hands.

Marc: [00:30:45] You are good at building stuff?

Ben: [00:30:48] No, not yet, but I’ll learn it. It’s all or nothing.

Marc: [00:30:51] Yeah. You can teach yourself, but you know, you have to be careful because these modern tools. You can also intro your hair.

Ben: [00:30:59] I like all my fingers where

Marc: [00:31:00] they are listed chain. So it was a chain. So if you’re trying to shave your beard off with the chain.

So anyway, we have this situation and as I said, I think Americans should invest overseas and investing overseas would mean to also own some precious metals, gold, silver. Platinum, but then to store it overseas, not in the U S and to own some properties overseas, if someone cannot own a whole property, he can buy ETFs, but I would also diversify the custodian.

You know, there’s no point to have all your money in your 401k account. And nothing outside the us because I’ve seen people coming out of Eastern Europe, you know during the cold war. And I’ve seen people when they came out of China in 1945, 1949, the Shanghainese Shanghainese, they went principally to Taiwan and to Hong Kong and someone to Singapore, to the U S but anyway, There are two classes of Shanghainese that went out the one that had some money outside the country.

Righty. And the ones that had nothing. I had a friend, he was the assistant of a very wealthy Hong Kong, Chinese. He was actually Eurasian and he was, his family was the comparator of Jardiance, which was the largest conglomerate at the time. Anyway. He’s also always told me his family, my assistant was Richard and we were much, but when he came out, you have nothing because all the family had all its assets in properties and factories in Shanghai and the region, they have nothing.

So he ended up by working for this, not a nice man, but we’ll see. Cantonese

that is the fortunes of life, you know, but these are things you can think about and prepare. I have friends, they actually left the U S physically and they’re also getting other passports. Especially young people.

Ben: [00:33:35] Yeah. I’m a big fan of this flag theory. Multiple passports ownership spread across different jurisdictions.

I’m fighting against the tide. I’ve been out side of the U S for nearly a decade. And I just moved back for the first time this year. I think I’m, I’m somehow reversed this whole idea, but you know, it is what it is. I think we’re we’re on this unavoidable March toward socialism and redistribution of wealth.

for Americans, for us people, I get it for an asset holdings, foreign brokerage gold land outside of the U S. I need to research this more, but it actually seems like the whole world is moving toward this socialistic state. Right. I mean, or they’re even further along on the path,  than, than the, we are at the U S do you think the whole world’s moving towards socialism

Marc: [00:34:25] because I just received an email today from someone from Eastern Europe and tell you people, they will never want to go back.

Never. It’s only spoiled Voke society in the Western world that is dumbed down that wants to go to socialism because they have surveys in America surveys that show the young baby at 60% thing, the government should do more to support. They want socialism. They are against the capitalist success.

Capitalism means freedom. Socialism means you’re going to work like in the factory. Check in, check out. No freedom.

Ben: [00:35:19] Yeah. This time it’s different. Maybe it will work out really well this time. I suppose. That’s what everybody’s thinking.

Marc: [00:35:26] It’s going to work out much worse. Because in the past to be fair to all the forms of government, if he did a bad job, he got killed Chesterton.

The English novelist wrote already a hundred years ago. The most surprising fact is that so few government officials go to jail. Yes. I agree. Nobody of the bureaucracy goes to jail. Because they all protect each other.

Ben: [00:35:58] Well, you said earlier they’re like mafia, right?

Marc: [00:36:04] Yes. I think Americans and those other people, they should definitely own some assets overseas.

And you know, also some assets in cash overseas because maybe the dollar goes down much more than we think. I’m very bearish about the U S dollar by the way. But I think there’s no way out for the us dollar not to depreciate. Now, can it go up for a week or a month? Who knows? But the trend I think is down and hard.

Try down hard. And do I think us foreign policy has to change and they have to accept the fact. That the world is a different world than during the Vietnam war. And during the early part of the cold war, the us is not any longer a superpower the way they were relative to the rest of the world. Before we have our countries like India and China, their economies are in some sectors, much larger than in the U S.

Does that also large than in Europe? Do we cry in Europe about the fact that China is so much bigger lenses? We live with it. We settled on what we can and we buy it from them. What we can, our job in the world is not to play the policeman. This is a big misunderstanding. That the us has that they tried to be the policeman and that they kind of have to believe that they’re better than other people are.

Ben: [00:37:53] Yeah. we’ve enjoyed this, this reign of us being the global number one and. We’re competitive and we need to win and all these things that it permeates through all of our society.  it’s very valid.

Marc: [00:38:06] I mean, Brighton was also number one and to be fair to Britain, they aged well, London is still one of the most desirable places for foreigners to live.

The British courts are very good, very fair. They treat foreigners the same way. They treat local people. And so I think they’re no longer a superpower. I mean, if Britain went to China in 1842, that destroyed the army. In a day and then China had to get the British today. This would be a little bit different.

It would not even enter the Chinese. What would you say?

Ben: [00:38:54] It’s true. I wanted to ask one more question about like a foreign real estate investor. What, what other economies would you look at? Because I know a lot of them are just as bad or worse. where would you start your search and why?

Marc: [00:39:09] Yes. A lot of economies today are maybe in a worse shape than the U S that is possible whereby we would have to analyze, you know, Why is the U S better off, maybe it’s better off because they printed so much money and maybe it’s better off because they have this in the last 12 months, over $3 trillion deficit, fiscal deficit.

This is obviously not sustainable in the long run and other countries may not have that. We have to be very careful in the analysis of that statement. But one thing is of course true. The stock markets have many regions have tumbled, whereas the indices in the U S star in the sky, I can also argue many stocks in the U S have tumbled.

And the NDCs are in that because we have this dual market, these diverging performances between high tech that is in the sky. And popular and over owned. And we have depressed stocks that just made a historic low, say oil basic industry steel and so forth, aluminum, copper, and banks, so that they are stocks in the U S that are inexpensive.

And the stocks that are very expensive. And the same in the U S stocks are expensive and elsewhere in emerging markets, they’re not expensive. They’re cheap. There’s some markets that sell at three, four times earnings who specie. Stan is one, IRAC is another one and so forth. So they are opportunities.

Actually. I think today there are lots of opportunities for the value investor. Because you understand value is created when all the money flows into popular sector, say in the late eighties, all the money flowed into Japan, it created value elsewhere. In year 99, 2000 old, the money flowed into the.com bubble.

They created value elsewhere. And at the moment we have the same situation and I think there’s a lot of value in equities. People will say, well, they have problems. Oil will not be popular and so forth. They’ve said that the bad coal for the last 200 years, and we still use coal

Ben: [00:41:46] is lower than

Marc: [00:41:48] 70% of electric power is generated by coal.

So anyway, and so this is the sector. I would look at emerging markets. And also depressed stocks in the U S.

Ben: [00:42:04] Awesome. Well, Mark really, really appreciate you taking all the time and, and being on here so late your time. I think you’ve shared some really, really valuable insights that I know my listeners are gonna love,

Marc: [00:42:15] I don’t get up early in the morning.

Ben: [00:42:18] Well, good. You need to sleep. I mean, it’s. It’s important. Right? where, where can my listeners find out more about you? I’ll be linking gloom, boom doom report and everything in my show notes. But where would you like some

Marc: [00:42:30] website.com? Perfect.

Ben: [00:42:33] Mark. Thank you so much. It was a, it was a pleasure.

Marc: [00:42:37] It’s worse. Finding out more about me. Maybe avoid me.

Ben: [00:42:41] No, I’ll link everything. You’re you’re a legend. Thank you so much.

There you go. First off. Thank you very much for listening all the way through. I hope you got a lot of value out of that conversation. As always, you can find show notes, links, and [email protected].

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