Episode 70: Web3 Identities and NFTs with Hadrien of Sismo

[00:00:00] Ben: Welcome to the alt asset allocationpodcast, exploring alternative investment opportunities available to theeveryday investor. Here's your host Ben Lakoff.

Welcome to the alt asset allocation podcast. Today's interviewis with Hadrian from Cismo web three identities, NFTs and privacy. These wouldbe the key topics for today's interview.

Web three identity has been all the rage lately. In thisconversation, we talk about it in a lot more detail and dig into some of theways that cisma is innovating directly in this category. Also, this is part ofthe next series of podcasts, and I'm actually doing these live on Twitterspaces. I do them from my personal account at Ben lake off, as well as thepodcast at invest in alts. Hope you can join one day and ask questions. They'reactually super fun for now. I'm cutting out the question and answer segment,but this is a good source of alpha good chance to interact with the guests thatI have on the show and ask them the questions that come up during the podcastitself.

Before we jump into the episode I wanted to do. Quick second tothank you for all the questions and feedback I've been getting you guys reallyrock. If you've been getting some value from this podcast, please drop me aline or a review. These things really mean a lot Hadrian of cisma on web threeidentities.

Enjoy

Hadrian. Welcome to the all to asset allocation podcast.Excited to have a young.

[00:01:34] Hadrien: Yeah, thanks for having me, Ben, howare you? Yeah,

[00:01:38] Ben: doing great, man. Really, reallyappreciate you coming on web three identity and MTS privacy. You guys hit a lotof the buzzwords, a lot of my interests in what you're doing with cisma.

So It's very much looking forward to jumping into a lot moredetail on this, but before, just to kick things off, let's hear a briefbackground of you. I know you've been in the space for a long time and how youcame to be working on cisma and.

[00:02:08] Hadrien: Yeah. Yeah. Exciting topics. Right.Exciting to speak about that.

Here. So yeah, my name is Adrian. I've been working on Ethereumsince 2015, so yeah, always been interested in the blockchain technology thatI. Turned out to be passionate about since Bitcoin days, but I didn't like theS the, the, the, the philosophy of Bitcoin that was, what about libertarianismand stuff like that.

And when Ethan came out the community was much more driven tohave an impact and try to change the world with entrepreneurs and stuff likethat. So that's why I joined that. I always try to work on the topics that Ithought was the most impactful. So the first things that I worked on was stablecoins.

I was doing since 2016 defied projects that was close to whatmaker was doing. So defy for stable coins. And so, because at the beginning itit's abused that if you want And it's worked at e-tron to be useful. You needto have some financial stability and stuff like that. Anyway. And now I thinkthat today that's why I'm working more.

I think the hottest topic is, is now we're ready to go towardsmainstream and to impact every days. With better login system with betteridentity, with better, better control over the data that you share across theweb and with just better services that are not yeah, that better.

[00:03:46] Ben: Yeah, definitely.

And I mean, stable co and defy super, super early with thosethings. But I mean, what, what a foresight there, that those things would be asbig as they are today, but now you know, web three identity and, and you werefull disclosure. I know you guys have been working on this long before, likeeveryone woke up to it, but web three identity it's super hot right now.

So let's just. What it is and why it's important.

[00:04:16] Hadrien: Yeah, sure. Basically, it's prettysimple. It's something that you own, it's an identity that you own and it's,yeah, it can be a new term address or it can address, but all these things iswhat we call a WebSphere identity, meaning that it's something that you own.

And since you own it, you bring it, you bring it with yourselfwhen interacting with web applications. So let's say. Ethereum address. Andthat I used a service, let's say because I don't know I had a saving accountthere. That's great. I brought my address to this app. I interacted with theapp and then I can reuse this address somewhere else, so, okay.

I have my saving accounts on this address on, I used to dothis, but I can reuse this address to, I don't know. On the fire or stuff likethat. So I think this is the main thing about web three profile or web threeidentity, or the idea is the fact that since you own it, it becomes an asset ofyours. And so you bring it to the application that you use, and that's verydifferent from the centralized.

Of services like marketplaces work to marketplaces socialnetworks, where to access the service. You need to create an account in theirdatabase. And it's actually the service that you create an account. Whereas inwork three, it's more. Yeah, I really have my accounts. What can I do with it?How can I improve it?

It's my asset. So I think this is the most important thing.Think about where.

[00:05:58] Ben: Yeah, I I'm curious, like working on thisand being so passionate about web three identities, do people and I'm airquoting, but do people get it or is it still a little early? We're a bit in ourown echo chamber where most of my colleagues and people I interact withunderstand the idea of this decentralized web three identity, but for the averageperson, what kind of gets them over the line to understand, Hey, this thing isimportant.

[00:06:27] Hadrien: Yeah, I think it's yeah. As you said,nobody understands it. And that's why we were so much focused on defy before,because it's, it was an insider game between us. It's like defy Zola, butpeople that really know what they are doing and it's, it's pretty for experts.But. With an S because it's hard to understand which means like ownership overyour data ownership over your identity, what is an identity or these things arepretty much complicated, but with the rise of NFTs, I think everything changedbecause it, it attracted mainstream participants that are just enjoying art orcollect, or, you know, like NFC brought domestic.

And what's amazing with it is that it's really simple is I canown something, a piece of art, but the, the, the hidden hitches that iteducates about where three, when you are, when users are getting used to go oncompetitors on competitive competitive platforms, such as open C variablefoundation.

All these platforms are competitors, right. But they see thesame assets there. And I think that unconsciously, that creates in today'susers, the sense of ownership. These are my energies. This is my data. This is,yeah, this is my assets. And I bring it to the platform that. It allows me touse it. And so I think it's really powerful because this is the essence of webthree.

And if people are now getting back to a web to art, digital artplatform, and that's a way my skin is, is, is trapped into your platform. Whycan't I use it every elsewhere? This is where we will. And then they're goingto have twins for all the places. That's my ceiling. And that's why I'm soexcited about this.

[00:08:32] Ben: Yeah, I think and FTS have been a bit ofa Trojan horse in more ways than one and getting people with new ideals and,and viewpoints into the space. That's for sure. But there has been a lot ofattempts at decentralized credentials or did these. Where have they fallenshort? And why, why is this not more prevailing?

I mean, I know Microsoft has a, did a service or product, butwhy have these fallen short in your opinion?

[00:09:06] Hadrien: Yeah, because it's at the same time,super exciting, meaning it's once you understand the concepts of jig, this oneidea, the fact that you own your identity, or once you understand crypto. Itbecomes really abused that it is a better system, but it's not because it'sobvious that it's easy to implement.

And so I think that the judges pace and generally cryptographyand all, all these things have been looking for something that actually getsadopted. And so long before Bitcoin ideas about how to decentralize that cashor these things like this happened before Bitcoin. But. It can get was adoptedand that changed everything.

And so it's the same with the ideas. Of course, the idea ispretty simple. You can generate an account like users can generate, generatethemselves in accounts. And if they have such an accounts with cryptography,they can do stuff, credentials, all these things, but for, from an engineering,Point of view.

It's not that hard to conceptualize that between implementedand to get traction around it. It's supposed to be hard. And I think that's whywe are so excited at Cisco that now thanks to NFG, we get not only energy, butlike the, the general industry has some users and users with their web threeprofiles through defy, through Dows through NSDs, they started to generate.

I put themselves in their web profiles. And now that there isactual data and that there is actual usage now comes the interesting part of,yeah. Okay. How can I build my reputation? How can I prove stuff now that Ihone this data? How can I leverage it in new ways that were not possiblebefore, before in where to from this data?

How can I extract value? Like the, the, the traditional, thetraditional model. I put my data into a web to company and they extract valuefrom it so that I don't pay, like, basically it's the older I am the product.And in web three, we reversed that it's your data and you own it, and servicehelps you to use it.

So now it's more about how you extract this data. And so that'swhere we don't chose. It's really interesting. And I think it's a good timingfor these kinds of ideas. Of course, it will take some time to, to, to, to beused that scale. But I think it's a good time. We have that on, on with threeprofiles we realized that this data is valuable and with this interestcredentials, or we see smarter stations, we are trying to let's use thoseleverage.

In a privacy preserving manner. That's, that's what we aredoing. It's

[00:12:09] Ben: and I definitely want to get into Sysmonand a lot more detail. Cause that last thing you said in a privacy preservingapproach is, is very, very important. So data, I get it about publicblockchains, public transparent. Completely transparent.

This is very much the opposite of privacy preserving. So let'sgo into why, I mean, cause I could take the flip side here and say, oh, I havemy ENS domain, my dot Eve, or NFTs as an identity layer. Where did these fallshort and using these as an identity?

[00:12:51] Hadrien: Yeah. So again, I'm repeating againbecause it's, it also gives me the ability to give you my definition of a webthree identity.

But from your web three identity is defined by the fact thatyou own the accounts and, okay. So I own the accounts, but where is it? Does itexist today, your account, your work for your accounts? Usually it's a Ethereumaddress or Bitcoin address or the no Sedona The actual data is stored on thepublic blockchain.

So everything can see that everything can see the data that isstored on your accounts. Everything can see your history of these accounts. Sothis is great because this is transparent. This is auditable, and that makes itthis entrees. This is thanks to that. That is some trays, but it's public. Andso.

Since the good of these accounts is to be Mitchie services. Arethat meaning that the goal of web three is that you don't have one account perservice siloed, but that you have one account for everything. That's great intheory. But today as the data is public and as the web three accounts arepublic, if it's the same accounts, If you use the same accounts as a defy defyaccounts.

So you use alpha unit swap, you do trading, you do farming, youdo whatever you want, but you consider it as your web three banking accounts.And if you use the same accounts to do your NFC collections that are moresocial, or you dealt with that as completely social, it's a bit like if you useFacebook while.

Leaking your bank statements at the same time. So this is whytoday, unfortunately while we're three allows for an amazing interoperabilitybetween the apps today people are kind of siloing themselves again, a bit likein the web to system where you have one account per service and that's becausethey don't want to, to link their financials.

Which is on their defy accounts with their social data that ison there. I dunno, Dow and FC accounts. And even with their professionalaccounts, like I was working at I got paid, so I have this professional accountto that proves that I contributed to avid, but I don't want to connect it to mysaving account because I don't want to know my employers to know what.

Where's and stuff like that. So that's why today advanced usersof atrium create one new counts per usage. Whereas the good of wave three isreally to have one identity that regroups all these accounts, and that allowsyou to connect two websites to, to, to an application and enrich audio data.You have.

This is, again, this is a bit what we we'll get into thatlater, but this is more allows you to have this two, to have one web threeidentity that controls basically all your accounts and create no links betweenthem. So nobody can see the links between all your accounts. Nobody can knowthat it's the same owner, and then you can choose.

When connecting to an app or for this app, it's a financialapp. I reveal my financial data from all my accounts and stuff like that, butwe'll get to the data.

[00:16:38] Ben: Yeah, I love it. This is how youoriginally pitched it to me and long ago. And I mean, the thought of likeunwillingly doxing yourself is a complete disaster.

If you don't want to, you have all of your data since thebeginning of time forever. The ability for cisma to connect these differentaccounts, selectively reveal that info to whatever service or provider you wantto use and have this aggregated identity is something super, super compellingfor the web three space.

So let's dive into it, like what is, cisma explain it like I'mfive. What do you do to connect all of these different accounts and the privacypreserving?

[00:17:22] Hadrien: Yeah. So, so it's just, it's prettysimple. It allows you to generate proofs. It allows you to generate yeah.Proofs from your rep three accounts. So if I have to work through accounts thathave, I don't know, 10 eater, which is more, I'm able to generate a proof thathave more than five ether or.

Then ether, it's an artist station protocol, meaning that wesee is more, you can generate proofs of things that you own. You own youraccounts, where you can generate proof on them. And yet, and this proofs let'ssay that I own five ether are then written on chain as an attestation, as anNFG SysML has like, so the, the.

The first release that we have is a zero knowledge attestationprotocols. Meaning that when you generate the proof, like if you have anaccounts that have 10 ether and that you generate to prove that you have fiveeater, this proof, there's not really anything about the source of data. Sonobody will ever be able to know that, okay, you generate this proof of fivedata from this account.

They just know that you were able to do it. So whether you have10, 20, or Southern eater somebody we know. And so that, that's the core ofthis, which allows you to leverage your data, to leverage your work threeprofiles, to generate privacy, preserving proofs. And so that's thetechnological part. And then these proofs are turning to well usable accessstations.

So that's from. Proofs that are technical applications. That'sintrigued that that can integrate them easily. Can use these proofs asrepetition system, as access control system. So pretty, very simply. There isthere is a group chats for da YC hotels. Like this is for NFC holders. And I'dlike to join because I have about eight I'm part of this community, but I havean issue.

This boat, Abe is in my men wallet, where I have all mynetworks. If I joined this group chats, by showing them this address and losingmyself, that's a nightmare. And today's, there's no tool for me to tell them,Hey guys, I have about eight. But that's all I want you to know. And so it'sjust more just that.

So it allows you from your menu counts on which you haveeverything to generate a zone that is proof of a boat, ape ownership. And thisproof is packaged in a way so that it's usable by web to apps like your groupchats or baseball strikes or stuff like that. And so, yeah,

[00:20:23] Ben: super cool. And just for my listeners togo back a bit and hopefully we don't end up in a definitional hell, but let'sjust explain zero knowledge proofs because of the, the core use of them in theway that you're doing this.

Yeah.

[00:20:43] Hadrien: It's your honor. The truth is it's,it's really approved that doesn't reveal how you create it. So this is theabstract level, but. If I can take a simple example, I can let's do that.Everybody knows that there is three cows. Like there is three cows. There istwo red cows and one black cow. I choose one cow.

I don't reveal it to you. So from these three tests that weknow to red, black, I choose one and you don't know what color to have. Andthen I show you that in the two cows that I haven't chosen there is the blackone. What are revealed to you? I proved that I have a black cab withoutrevealing you, which exact black card I have.

And so this is the whole concept of it. It's like, okay. I havein accounts that has involved the ape, some ether, some RV, I don't know thathas lots of history, but I just want. If you approve of one very specifictopics, like I am the owner of this NFG, as you want to, as proof is the proofthat reveal.

Just that and not the account from which I create the proof. SoI'm not sure if it, it helps, but

[00:22:02] Ben: yeah. Zero knowledge proofs are a bitnaive. Mind-bending they do this with cryptography to prove to somebody thatyou have something. Showing them that you have it, but it's a kudos to you guysfor working with these.

Cause every time I think about them, like I said, a littlemind-bending, but pulling us out of like the technical definitions. So the waythat I imagine this work, I have this identity and. Issue, these proofs, theselittle badges, little enough badges of owning a crypto punk or having a definedusage or having some other, you know some other thing on chain.

And all of this is aggregated into that cisma identity. Isthat, is that pretty.

[00:22:50] Hadrien: Yeah, exactly. So we allow you, weare there you again, like it's always the same system. That's why I'mexplaining this way. Is that from a way account, you are able to generate onefact. So let's say that now I have two accounts.

So you want to speak a bit about the aggregation part. So nowlet's say that I have two accounts. One account has two ether. The other one isfor ether.

Basically, I will be with this, more able to prove that I haveaccounts and we don't know the numbers that's in community. It has more thanfive eater. So. Yeah, that's it. So there is also the aggregation part whereyou can, yeah. So how

[00:23:39] Ben: are these proofs issued? They're littleNFT badges.

Non-transferable NFTs. How, how does this work?

[00:23:47] Hadrien: Yeah, so initially there are NFTs andagain, like, you know, I said, that's why so many things that we did haven'tworked out is. They are trying to push a standout that is not used. And Ft is astandard is used everybody in wave three. And even in web two are starting tounderstand what is an NFC.

So the information of the proof, let's say the fact that youhave five Dieter, we package it as NFG, meaning that.

If you have it Ft, it has an address. And it took an idea. It'sa, if, if we are being very precise, it's a . But what it means is that if youhave this NFG, it means that you were able to generate the proof that you arefive liter. That means that you have an account somewhere that I've had thisether. So, so that's how it works, but it's just, my vision is way.

I think in the sense that once you have this proof, themathematical proof, of course, we can create an NFC that represents the data.Like you have more than five eater, but this proof, since it's a mathematicone, and everybody can verify it, you can also send it directly to work toservice. Let's say, I don't know, you are group chats and you just want to getyou access to people that have more than five ether.

One way of doing it is I just let people join. If they prove methat they have the NST budgets I told you about, or the chat app can alsoaccept directly the mathematical proof that they have more than typewriter. Sothis doesn't need any transaction and they just check it in the backend andthey verify that, oh, this proof is valid.

And so then the, the, let the user access, they are. Theservice. So that's, that's why I'm talking about at the stations and thenbadges at the station is the data parts and budgets. The NFC parts is thepackage, meaning that what matters is the information you generate a proof andit's a proof of effect.

And then this fact is packaged so that it's easy to integrate.So as NFC first, Yeah, feel free to ask more questions because it might be abit complex. So

[00:26:10] Ben: it's definitely a complex, but it's, it'snot an easy problem to solve. So there's always like a more complex way ofdoing this. So when I'm thinking, so this privacy preserving proof is issued asan ERC 1155.

The thing that always gets me here, I view at attestation as abit of a mark in history, you know it, it, that it's something that happenedthat can't be taken away, but in the case of getting approved, that I own acrypto prompt. So say I own this crypto punk. I get the, the ERC 1155 proofthat I own it in my identity.

How does this happen? Real time? What if I lose or sell thatcrypto punk? What happens to that proof? That I've earned?

[00:27:01] Hadrien: Yeah. So in the initial protocol ofthis mob, the acquisition per quarter, the zero-knowledge one, it's not adynamic one, meaning that if you set the punk. The registration will still bevalid.

I mean there are decision is this is just currently a snapshotof effect. So you were able at some point to generate dissatisfaction, thatmeans that at some point you had to pump, but then you can create a decision offacts that are a bit more interesting, like. But let's say that you have had apunk for the next, for the past three months.

And so it just makes it harder to gain the system, which the,the, what institutions are at first are also static, meaning that they can berenewed, they should be renewed. And it's up to the applications actually tochoose what they want. And, you know, when I told you the badge is just apackage on top of effect, Like the attestation, actually, what it is is you hadthe punk at this exact date and the badge is the NSG rep representation of it.

And this is the application that you are, meaning that in thebatch, you say, okay, I consider that this information, this badge is validonly for 10 days, meaning that if the attestation is older than 10. You need torenew it. And so this is where you have the batch at the application a year.And the NFG, if you go past these 10 days, these appeals, that's, that's thedifference between the acquisition that is effect the snapshot, something thatis true, and that will always be through at this date, this person had fiveeater and the badge that is an application usage of dissatisfaction.

Yeah has an experience. Gotcha. And that

[00:28:56] Ben: will be a key educational piece. I wouldimagine with cisma is you know, that this was a attestation at that period oftime, as opposed to this permanent stamp of approval until the end of time,right? Yeah.

[00:29:10] Hadrien: Yeah. It's really like, we, we aredoing a system that allows you again.

Prove stuff about your identity and then application willconsume that. And the good news is that the proofs that you generate arecorrect and privacy preserving, and then that the link that decisions are easyto use. And that's why we have these badges that we can on the long term, maybedo some other stuff then budget.

We have two packages, verifiable credentials, all these thingsThat's the core mission of SysML lets users with you, your users generallyproof from the data that doesn't ducks them and then have this. Very useful,very usable so that all applications are using it for the reputation system,for the gating system for controlling access.

[00:30:05] Ben: I'm also curious. So how, how does a uservalidate that the receiving one. The, the proof is also owned by the issuer inthat case.

[00:30:18] Hadrien: Yeah. So now, so now we can actuallyspeak, like, we were very conceptual, a but more concrete in our system offront end. What'd you do is that you will import your accounts, meaning thatyour source accounts And you were impartial five minute counts and importingthem.

He's not uploading anything in any server is just generating acryptographic stuff from each account that will allow you to prove stuff aboutyourself. So, anyway, so you import your accounts, let's say five accounts. Yougenerated this disturb that allows you then to prove data about virtualaccounts.

Okay. And yeah. So now you imported five accounts. You, you seethat, or I am able to meet, to create this batch, the veggies I own when cryptopunk, then I need to choose the destination. Okay. I want this batch to be senton another address. Let's do going a bit because I don't want to create anylink, like let's be good of it.

I have a crypto punk on the one on the dress, and I want tocreate a. A proof of punk ownership on a new address on a vision one. So theway it twists that I will need to connect with this, this national address andsign the message through that. I own it. And then I can receive the badge andthis badge again, will leak nothing about the source accounts.

It will just be sent like that under this initiative.

[00:31:49] Ben: And curious, just looking at your roadmapgoing forward, what is the biggest hurdle you see to rolling out cisma to themasses,

[00:32:00] Hadrien: to the masses? So, yeah, to the masses.I think that, of course they are words. So again, I say with three identities,it's the data that you own from an accounts and we are already.

Seeing that with the identity is multi chain. Meaning that froma ITAM address, if I control a neater, my address is a new term accounts. Ialso control in the vaccine accounts. I control the arbitrage accounts andoptimism accounts putting on the accounts. So the world is merchant. Also, Itold you an identity is way more than one account.

It's a set of accounts, actually. And so the world, the waythrough world is much chain it's merchant addresses, and it's one identity thatcontrol all these addresses on all these chains. And so I think that one of theblocker is what is today. Wells are not done for this world. They are stillmono. One of the dress.

I mean, that's usually when you're on new wallets and youconnect with three app, you're always connected in one chain on one address.And yeah, this is once we grow more and more and what it will grow with us at somepoint we'll have, well, that's. Just as you identity and underlying, there willbe some addresses, a lot of addresses, but addresses are just technical tools.

Actually, these should never be shown to users, right?Addresses their exile on the, what is your X 1, 2, 2, 3, you went four BC. Thiswould never be shown to user. And so, yeah. Once we have nice wallets that aremulti chain that you can. Yeah, control multiple address and do all thecryptography that we do in cinema front-end.

If we can do it as well, it's a layer R R then we really have awifi SSO, a competitor to Google connect. That is way, way, way better. Youinput one time, all your accounts, and then you reuse that everywhere. Andit's. And yeah, and I don't know, you want to access your, I don't know, awebsite, you just move.

Okay. You need what? You need to know that I'm not from thiscountry. Okay. I send you as runners, prove that I'm not from this country. Oh,I need to be older than 18. Okay. I show you this proof and all of this is generatedbehind the students. So yeah, not sure if he taps the, if he turns to thequestion today, I think.

We are starting to remember to chain. And we are starting tounderstand that when the dress is when technical thing and that an account isnot just when the restaurant accounts is a set of address.

[00:35:02] Ben: The question that, that leads me to thinkabout is what happens if you lose access. I think the joy of like being yourown bank is also if you lose that private key to that main account, how, howwould one go about restoring?

[00:35:18] Hadrien: Yeah, that's an interesting one. A.Of course we can speak about the social recovery. That is pretty, that that isin Vogue. And that is the preferred solution to this problem is the fact thatif we get some usage so mainstream usage, then we can set up some friends,trusted entities. So friends are companies, also your bank who are, I don'tknow what you can set up an entity that you trust has a part of your recrecovery mechanism, meaning that.

If you set up five trusted entities and you say if four of themasked to recover my account, then go. And so the, the process would be okay,have five trusted entities. When, once I lose my accounts I go tell my, myfour, four of the five trusted. And he says, Hey, help me recover my content. Ican recover it.

So. That does a country covering you know, there's somefishing, but yeah, all of these are, yeah, for now. We're not there yet at all.Hmm. Well, the

[00:36:24] Ben: space as a whole is starting to thinkmore and more about these things and long gone are the super archaic,terrifying ways of doing it. There'll be new ways and these will have newattack factors that we have to rethink through.

So

[00:36:40] Hadrien: it's,

[00:36:41] Ben: it's, it's never, never a dull moment inweb three land that's for sure. All right. Also like let's talk about roadmap,timeline. What does a launch look like for ? Where are you? When can we expectto start playing around?

[00:36:59] Hadrien: Yeah, I think we'll expect thatwithin the next month we are finalizing it so next few months you'll be able totest it and to generate this budgets.

So you're be able to generate that proof of asset ownership.We'll go towards that. First prove me that you have this NFC or premium thatyou have, that amount of ESE is. And what we want to do is. Help with gatedcommunities regarding privacy meaning that today. Yeah. W we have several usecases, but today you have a lot of gated communities that don't really respecttheir user's privacy.

That keeps in that database, all the addresses of their users.So this is not amazing. So we'll go after these kinds of use cases, thesimplest one that use NFC to get their service as are, as a reputation,reputation, or tool. So, yeah, but we will, we'll try to little by little help.The web three. System to grow, to grow and, and do aggregation privacy, andalso transfer of data for them.

So another use case that you, I heard about it yesterday onTwitter, let's say you have a crypto punk, it's worth a lot of money, right.And usually you should write. Have you done your cold? What is right? Becauseotherwise we seen that you can get hacked and even players in the advancedusers are getting act.

So how can you now let's not even think about privacy, but howcan I leverage the fact that I own a crypto punch without having to use theaddress that stores it, and Cisco can help with this too. So you have a cold.Whether that is very well protected that holds the hard assets, the cryptopunk, and then you generate a zero-knowledge on a zero knowledge proof of it toa hot wallet.

And then you use this hot words to, to access, to get itservice. And that's what we will also enable, which is more meaning that wecreated. This first acquisition protocol is. But we also have a nonzero-knowledge one. And yet you just asked me before, what if we want somedynamic or a dynamic agitation?

If we remove those runners parts, meaning that we can knowwhere, how the proof is created. We can very well this time watch the accountsand if the park moved, then we remove your, your. You are you're proof anyway,so yeah, a lot of use cases, we excited, we will design a very nice protocolthat should allow to have different attestations Kim's who is your allegedones?

Complex ones, simple one with different traders regardingprivacy, decentralization, and usability. So that's the good of this more that,yeah,

[00:40:19] Ben: we

have.

[00:40:23] Hadrien: You can leverage your data. We seesmoke, you have that on your, to your accounts. You need, you need to leverageyour data. This mode, that would be an attestation scheme that will allow youto prove what you want in the way you want privacy on that.

There's some trays on that. I don't know how we want to bedisplaced and the place for applications to create repetition or access controlfrom Webster accounts. So . I am the web three way, meaning that they expecttheir users to come with their identity. They don't expect users to create anaccount in their platform.

They expect users to come with their identity. And instead of,instead of asking them, Hey, reveal everything, giving me everything aboutyourself. So I can create repetition about you or give you access to myservice. This application will just ask, Hey, I. You to prove me that you havethis prove it to me.

And this is the other part of as has made it easy to createthis kind of integrations.

[00:41:28] Ben: Awesome, great stuff. Hey, Hadrian.Really appreciate it. Where can and people find out more about you? Cisma wherewould you like to send my.

[00:41:40] Hadrien: For now, I guess that it's Twitter.I'm dadrian but the most important thing would be at this mall.

We, we, again, we plan to release the documentation of thisprotocol degenerate one very soon. So yeah, just sort of there and in themonths we'll be able to really look into it. And yeah. W we will really focuson yeah. Attracting people that, that share this mission. And so feel free tohit me up if, if this topics JG, privacy, where three are interesting.

[00:42:17] Ben: We're definitely looking forward to thelaunch and I'll link up all of these things in the show notes. Reallyappreciate it. Hadrian. Have a good day. There you go. First

[00:42:26] Hadrien: off. Thank you very much for listeningall the way through. I hope you got

[00:42:29] Ben: a lot of value out of that conversationas always. You can find show notes, links, and more.

Alt asset allocation.com. Please share this with anyone youthink might be interested in derive any value from this conversation. And asalways, you can reach out to

[00:42:45] Hadrien: me for any feedback or questions.Please give the

[00:42:49] Ben: video a like, or even better subscribe onYouTube or your podcast player of choice. This really helps others find thepodcast or the video as well.

Thanks a lot. Hope everybody has a fantastic day and stay safeout there and invest with. Cheers.

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