Episode 69: Music NFTs with Jesse Grushack

Ben Lakoff, CFA
May 9, 2022
Listen to this episode on your favorite platform!

Today's interview is with Jesse Grushack

Music NFTs. Still not understood by many but in some corners of the internet they’re all the rage. In this episode we talk about Music NFTs, especially given Jesse’s background in the Music Industry.

Enjoy this episode with Jesse!

Listen on your Platform of choice:

Check out for all the listening options (Spotify, Apple, etc.)

Show Notes

0:00:00  Welcome and context    

0:00:17  What is your background?    

0:08:26  What is a music NFT?    

0:11:05  What gets people excited about music NFTs?    

0:18:15  What would be the first implementation of music NFTs in the industry?    

0:21:11  What is overhyped right now?    

0:23:00  What could music NFTs bring to the artists?    

0:26:03  How can investors get to music NFTs?    

0:31:30  What NFTs are most interesting to you?    

0:36:00  Where can people find out more about you?

Show Links

Jesse on Twitter


Spotify plans to integrate NFTs, other Web3 features

Helpful other Alt Asset Articles

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: Welcome to the alt asset allocationpodcast, exploring alternative investment opportunities available to theeveryday investor. Here's your host Ben Lakoff.

Hello and welcome to the all to asset allocation podcast.Today's interview is with Jesse Grushack, music NFTs, still not understood orknown by many, but in some corners of the internet, they are all the rage.

In this episode, we talk about music and FTS, especially givenJessie's background in the music industry, as well as many other fat aspects ofthe NFT world. Before you listen, please don't forget to like, or subscribe tothe podcast or even better leave a review. If you're watching this on YouTube, pleasesubscribe to the channel and, or give the video a little thumbs up.

Really really helps. Awesome. Here we go. Enjoy the episodewith Jesse on music and FTS. Jesse. Welcome to the altar asset allocationpodcast. Excited to have you on today.

[00:01:04] Jesse: Excited to be here.

[00:01:06] Ben: Cool man, Dan and doing these on Twitteris pretty fun. I'm not going to lie, so we'll allow people to jump in and thenat the end open up for some Q and a.

Before we get into NFTs music and FTS and all things aroundthat wanted to start off a bit about your background, how you got into cryptoand what you're working on now.

[00:01:30] Jesse: Yeah. Backgrounds. I have been in thecrypto space now, I guess, or I've been aware of Bitcoin now for. 12 years. SoI suppose I found Bitcoin and in 2010 it was worth 200 some, a penny.

I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. I moved on after,well, that's not true. I mined it for a couple of days. I was like, oh, thiscould be interesting. Like you could just make money with your computer. Thiswas still back when CPU mining was a thing. And so I mind for a couple of daysI had two hundreds of a penny half a Bitcoin, and I was like, wow.

My computer hasn't worked at all and in two days, and I don'thave any money. So this doesn't, this makes no sense. So I forgot about it fora year. Found it about a year later on on a certain site that was utilizing itfor purchases. And this was 2011. So you can make a whatever assessment youwant of that.

And again, I didn't really see any value in it. You know, I sawit as a means of exchange, not, not any value. And it wasn't really untilprobably I think early 2012 when the price started, I think the price it's $7for the first time back then. And then it kind of triggered the question in myhead of like, why does this have value and why do people believe this hasvalue?

And in kind of asking that question. I started asking thequestion, well, why does the U S dollar have value? And it was kind of thatmoment. I feel like that really set me on the path that I am on today of of,you know, value established constructs and you know, how we can kind ofreallocate.

Resources and capital in this, the world to make it a moreequitable and creative and, and better space for everyone. So, yeah, that was2012. I was in college at the time. I did a couple independent studies onBitcoin. I tried to borrow my school supercomputer to mine Bitcoin. They didn'tlet me, unfortunately I think they probably would have.

The highest endowment of any college at this point, if had theyallowed that to happen. But you know, I kept, kept my eye on, it, had a miningrig and my, my senior year house was just kind of, you know, playing aroundwith the space quite a bit. And when it was time for internships and jobs afterschool there was no Bitcoin industry that wasn't incredibly shady.

It was like, go work for Charlie Shrem or go into the musicindustry. And so I'd been writing for a music blog at the time dancing. Andkind of leverage my connections there too, to get a job in the space went towork for a company called ID and T, which does some small festivals liketomorrow land spent about a year and a half there after school.

And my job at that company was the intersection of technologyand live events. At live events, I would be in charge of our cashless paymentsystems and our cashless payment systems. Are those RFID wristbands you wear atfestivals and events to pay for drinks? Except most of our festivals at thetime were using festival currency.

So it was this like weird mix of kind of all of my interests.Kind of helping to create these currencies that were used for a weekend andthen would disappear and kind of learning human behavior around exchange ratesand you know, how we converted it. Cause it was never a one-to-one. It was Ithink our exchange rate we settled on for most of them was a 20 to one or 20.

Yeah. 20 to one, I believe. So. Or was it 20 to one or 20 tonine? I think actually, yeah. Nine. So $20 would get you like nine festivaltokens. Well,

[00:05:12] Ben: that's just a confusing exchange ratenow. Isn't it?

[00:05:15] Jesse: Exactly. It was by design. Perfect bydesign. I believe they made about half a million dollars in the exchange ratealone.

And yeah. You know, I mean, it's, it helps kind of suspend theillusion of reality, right? Because you go into this festival and you're like,oh, a beer is only two tokens. When in reality that's like five bucks or maybeit was, you know, four tokens for a beer. But like, it seems like a lot less than,so you have that whole psychology.

Things are cheap. Because I have tokens, I have nine tokens. Ican get three beers or two beers or whatever it was. And it was interesting,you know, and I spent about a year there. I kept trying to tell everyone that thesystem we were running should be on colored coin and Bitcoin. And this was 2014and everyone thought I was absolutely out of my mind.

So that didn't last too long. I spent about a year there yearand a half. And left was looking for my next role. Decided that I should gointo tech wanting to do project management had a background in computerscience. So I realized, you know, let me suck it up, do some coding for acouple of years.

And all eventually worked my way up to like a project manager.I found a company called consensus kind of in my. Days of like working on mydevelopment shops went and spoke went and met with them, met Joe Lubin for thefirst time. And this was consensus. Wasn't really a thing. There was like maybe20 employees at the time.

And they had just started thinking about music. Joe had apassion for music and I joined them in mid beginning, like may 20, 15 of a. Tostart working on music and looking at what the music industry would look likewith blockchain. And that led me down the rabbit hole very quickly.

[00:07:06] Ben: And yeah, but,

[00:07:07] Jesse: A

[00:07:07] Ben: commonality with all these talks, right?Like first you check out something like crypto or Bitcoin and write it off. Idid it myself. And then inevitably you come back and I think they used to callBitcoin the mind virus, because you, you just start thinking about questioningmoney and questioning all of these things and it leads you directly down therabbit hole.

That's for sure. I I'm curious. I mean, there's a lot to unpackthere, but I think perhaps a good jumping off point. So something I hear oftenwithin the NFT space, especially, and maybe we're just that part of the market,but NFTs are the future of the music industry. So I want to dig in a little bitmore I mean, I see Cooper talking about.

Our music Guild at charged particles is going crazy. It seemsto be the next big thing, but let's start off with definitions. So what is amusic NFT and how is that different from other types of enough tapes?

[00:08:11] Jesse: That's a good question. What is it?Music at Ft, right. I, you know, I, I could give you a definition, but I couldalso give you a definition that cataracts, the definition I gave.

So. You know, I think when we think about music NFTs ingeneral, right? We think about songs and taking the song and turning it into anNFT. And how, you know, we could go into the definition of what an R T is, butI won't kill ever in there. But basically, you know, it is a digital version ora digital representation of.

Song and I guess not a digital representation or I guess they'dblockchain version of a song. It's, it's hard to define because I think, youknow, you don't, it's not really the song. It's like a version of the song,right? It's a print essentially of digital print of the song, I suppose for themajority of these But at least that's how I kind of view them.

Because you're not really getting anything with that. Right. Ican see, you can say a music. NFT is, you know, the, it is like a digitalmaster, but if you buy a master you get all the rights and IP and everythingelse behind the song. So it's kind of hard to define because it kind of dependson the rights and the.

The IP ownership assigned to what's in that NFT. Does that makesense?

[00:09:35] Ben: I mean, yeah, it does. Well, I think thedifficulty in describing something like this, perhaps that leads to thedifficulty for people to understand and grasp how these can be transformationalor so what they can be and more importantly, what they won't necessarily be.

So. Like when, when people talk about NFTs, being able torevolutionize the music industry or, you know, it's the future of the NFT musicindustry. Why, why do people get so excited about this?

[00:10:17] Jesse: I, I, I'm not going to sit here like ahype man, because I honestly have been trying to figure that out too. You know,I spent in, in 2015, when I joined consensus we released a, the first consumerI'll call it an application, but that's generous.

It was really a demo. On a theory in October, October 1st,2015. So the really one of the first consumer uses on the Ethereum blockchain.And you were able to go on listen to imaging, heap song kind of human, see allthe ownership of who owned, what percentage of that song. And you were able topurchase that song.

And it was, I think, 60 cents at the time. In us dollars andone eith so for one year you could buy the song. And when you bought the song,all of the splits were done automatically. And we were like, you know, this isfucking revolutionary, right? Like you buy the song, everyone gets paid outimmediately.

Boom. This is going to change everything. The music industry isgoing to love this. And, you know, that's what we kind of thought, right? Andwe spent all of 2016, or I spent all of 2016 going into all the record labelsand publishers and whoever else. And, you know, granted, this was 2016 and thatwas the first year of the music industry had been on a positive.

Path in 15 years you know, the music industry in 2000 wasworth, I think, around like 31 billion. And then by 2015 it was 15 billion. Andso 2016 was the first up year they'd had in 15 years. And so. No one cared, noone wanted to make anything more transparent. No one wanted to make anythingless of a black box because they were making money for the first time in years.

And they didn't want to mess with that. So you know, that the,the ideology that it was going to change, everything I think came from, youknow, me and other others. You know, mostly technologists that didn't reallyhave any music industry experience. Didn't understand the music industry didn'treally, you know, see how that could how it couldn't change everything.

And the music industry looked at us like we were out of ourminds and that, you know, we were just another technology solution looking fora problem, which in, in many ways they, they were right. But you know, I think,how does the music, and I've had a music. NFTE is how does blockchain and musicchange everything?

I think because it gives everyone kind of the same opportunityto to play. It gives everyone the ability to publish to market, to do all ofthat, but you still need to do all the marketing. You still need to do all ofthat. Kind of traditional music industry things, just because you're now usinga different format.

I don't think it necessarily changes anything, but you know, itgoes give the ability for artists to at least understand and have transparencyinto their business. Right. And I think that's what the music industry didn'twant to give up in 2016. Was that transparent. And that's what crypto kind ofgives to musicians and to creatives is the ability to know the revenue flows,to know where the money's coming from, to understand who it's coming from sothat they can start to build better relationships with these supporters, withthe fans, with the patrons and, and builds, you know, a successful career.

You know, there's the, the age old article, the thousands. The,it was a thousand fans problem. Right? Got true. Fans, Kevin Kelly. Yeah. Youcan get a thousand true fans. They make a hundred dollars. They'll give you ahundred dollars each you're making a hundred thousand dollars as an artist andnow you have a sustainable living.

And I think that that becomes more possible than ever whenusing technologies that allow you to see into your business to understand whereit's coming from, because. Before, none of this stuff was transparent. None ofit was visible. You'd get a check from your label every six months. If you werelucky every year, you know, you get a payment from ASCAP, you get randompayments, you don't know how much they're coming in for.

You just kind of get checks and you hope for the best. And youknow, you take your advance and you hope you can live off of it until you canrelease another album. So I, you know, that to me is why this, this technologyis revolutionary for, for creatives and musicians, because it kind of allows.Insight and puts the artists back on top rather than being kind of the lastperson paid out.

Right. Because instead of, you know, the artist is getting paidand then they can pay out all the people that were involved versus where it canautomatically be paid out. Versus what happens now where, you know, out of the17 or 18 billion that the music industry is worth. I think artists take homesomewhere between eight to 12% of that.

So You know, how do you take that model and you flip it on itshead. And I think that to me is what's really exciting. You know, I think a lotof the experiments and such going on right now or hype but it it's exciting,you know, I think as if everything we're doing with crypto and blockchain andyou know, all of this.

Thinking is, is correct that like, you know, we're automating away, a lot of the monotonous business and contracts and, you know, tons ofhundreds and hundreds of jobs and people and middlemen you know, what do wehave left as humans? And we have creativity and that I think is the mostimportant part is that we can continue to foster creativity.

We can make it a. Sustainable living. You can make sustainableincome off of creativity, and that's really all we have over, over a machine atthe end of the day.

[00:16:10] Ben: I love it. I love it. No, I mean, it's,it's true. I, so transparency, fair distribution like this. This is a bigvalue. Add that adopting more in FTS.

Allows for the music industry.

[00:16:28] Jesse: But

[00:16:28] Ben: I mean, when I hear that, it soundsgreat. It's like this utopian future, but the reality is there's theseestablished institutions that probably don't want that. So I would imagine it'squite a bit of an uphill battle. So what, what would be. The firstimplementation of music NFTs in mainstream, within the music industry in theway that you see it.

[00:16:57] Jesse: That's a good question. You know, Ithink right now the majority of the music NFTs are simply signaling, right?It's I purchased this NMT, I, you know, paid X amount of dollars for this NFT.'cause they're not cheap, you know, like like even some of the cheaper ones inlike some of these platforms, they're still looking at like a 0.1 eith mint,which, you know, today is 300 bucks and, you know, tell me the last time youspent $300 on like a single artist in the traditional sense, right?

It's not, it's not accessible for most fans. But you know,let's, let's play this scenario out right. So if signaling and that is the mostimportant thing and if a major platform or to adopt, you know, what, what musicis today are you know, that could look like Spotify having who the NFT owner isin the credits.

Right. And I think that that alone would do really wild thingsto the NFT market. Because when you buy pretty much any. Visual and Ft like a,you know, any JPEG or whatever, whenever you go to view it you have to look ata screen and the chances are on that screen. It says your name or your address,or, you know, the owner of it somewhere with music, I don't have to open myeyes to experience music.

Right. And so until we have. Platform that is like a Spotifykind of integrate ownership. I don't know that this, this goes to the mainstream because it is kind of right now a rich person's market. Yeah,

[00:18:43] Ben: that makes a lot of sense. And I actuallyjust gave it a Google. But yesterday Spotify announced plans to integrate inMTS, whatever that means.

I mean, who knows it could be images and not even their own ina team marketplace like Limewire, nobody knows these days, but That was aninteresting way that I hadn't quite thought. I think that would be, that wouldbe huge, but I agree. I mean, it's signaling, it's a virtual flex it's withmusic. You've mentioned some things that kind of lead me to believe this, butwhen looking at the music landscape, what seems to be the most over-hypedaspect of it right now, or area, or And why,

[00:19:25] Jesse: like looking at the music and Tlandscape.

I mean, besides the whole thing I look, I want to be wrong.Right. You know, I think like what sound XYZ has done by paying out over like amillion and a half to artists is absolutely incredible. Like, you know, they'vedone an amazing job with that because. That's a million and a half hard dollarsthat artist didn't have before.

Right. And so, you know, I don't want to knock any of thatstuff, but I'm just trying to look at this from a sustainability point of view.And like how we can continue to generate revenue for artists in the longtermand not just through hype. And so, yeah, you know, I don't know that, I thinklike, I mean the whole space.

Hyped right now. And I guess like, what I'm really interestedto see is like how these, these NFTs retain value in the long-term you know,because you don't own anything and you don't own the IP, you don't own theroyalties. So what do do you own. You know, and like everyone who I I've askedlike, well, well, you know, why did we, why are we buying this?

Like, how do we think this has long-term value? And, you know,their answer is, well, you know, the artist does well and like the NFTA will dowell, maybe you know, I'm excited to hopefully see that. And I don't knowuntil, until we're at that point where, you know, there is this like massivesecondary market.

That's like continuously up only I don't know that or at leastup on the artists that are doing well and like having billboard, you know, topone hundreds and whatnot. Like, yeah. I don't know. I'm very skeptical. I like,again, I want to be wrong. It's just, you know, maybe I'm a boomer at thispoint and I don't get it.

I don't know. Yeah. So I, I totally get it.

[00:21:15] Ben: I mean, a lot of this is predicated onnumber, go up and people. Associate this and Ft with the success of thatartist. And sometimes it's not exactly directly tied together. But I'm curiousthen for these artists that want to create a sustainable ecosystem around theircommunity, I mean, how should they be thinking about more sustainability in thelong run?

[00:21:48] Jesse: Yeah. You know, I think, you know, itlooks like utility right now. Everyone's favorite word? I think like the, thefan club model is super interesting. It's, you know, again, I don't, I thinkthat right now, as an artist, you should be trying every single one of thesethings. You should be trying to figure it out because if you're.

If it doesn't work, there's no harm done. But if it does workand you know, you get paid $300 or $3,000 or $30,000, fuck. Yeah. You know,wonderful. But yeah, like what, how do you build a community online as anartist? Right. You know, how do you know your fans? How do you know. Where yourfans are, where you should be playing shows.

You know, I, these are like what I really want to see and whatwe've kind of people have talked about for years with like why blockchain andmusic it's like knowing your fans, owning your platform, because for many fansor many artists you know, on Spotify, you don't have. You don't know who yourfans are.

You don't know where they're from. You don't know if they're atyour shows for the most part. You know, there are some artists that can getthat data. But that stuff's really important to be able to own, you know, yourcommunity. And if we can kind of build towards that and artists can appreciatethat and start doing that and make relationships with these collectors.

Not just because they're speculating, but because they actuallybelieve in their career You know that, I think that that to me is where thisstuff starts. But again, you know, there's, there's, there's no, there is noguidebook yet, and there's no right or wrong answers. It's just kind of allexperimentation at this point.

[00:23:27] Ben: Yeah. And then. I mean, flipping it onits head. I mean, that's more for the creators, but for investors in the spacelooking to get involved, this is always been my issue or my difficulty, youknow, people have asked, Hey, how do I get exposure to NFTs? And there's,there's very few things that you can buy to give you broad exposure, but howwould, how would you suggest somebody looking to.

Air quotes, invest in the music in empty world. Go about

[00:24:02] Jesse: that. I dunno. Just start buyingeverything on sound, right. Go buy a bunch of catalog records, but by thingsyou believe in, I don't know that there's really anything great to speculate onbecause. You know, I guess with speculation comes at least some sort of insideknowledge that like certain things are going to do well.

And I don't know that that any of that's there yet. You know,it's if you have the money to speculate, then go develop relationships withthese artists, go buy some of their NFTs for you know, large amounts of money.You know, and look, I. Broke the record, I suppose, on like buying one of themost expensive NFTs on Zuora music empties.

So, you know, I guess you could ask me, well, why why'd you dothat? Right. And for me, you know, I, I threw a bit on the Latasha music video.I'd have T on Zuora. Just kind of for fun. Because like, you know, a waswanting to be seen in the space and wanted to make sure people knew that like Iwas still here and around.

But then I started listening to her Twitter space and like inthe last hour of the auction and I had been outbid at this point and what she,what she was talking about was just so.

Like real, right. You know, she was talking about how she hadbeen an artist, you know, she's been an artist for 10 years. She was openingfor some really big rappers back in like 20 13, 20 14. And some major labelsapproached her and gave her insulting amounts or offered to give her insultingamounts for you know, in advance.

And she had kind of, you know, built this. She started to buildthis empire in term music videos started to go for more and more, and I reallywanted to help her continue her story because her story's powerful and not onlyis her story powerful, but she gives back to the community so much. She doeslike weekly.

Or biweekly onboarding sessions for artists called Zuora Topia.And so if you're a new artist, go, go join. One of those, you know, she does Ithink every two weeks she does a Zuora Topia to tell board new artists. And soI wanted her story to continue and I wanted to support her. And I didn't buythat NMT because I thought it would be more valuable in the future.

I bought it before. I wanted to see Latasha succeed. And so,yeah, I don't know that there really is like if I was going to speculate on, onon NFTs and crypto in general, it probably wouldn't be music FTS, honestly. Iwill speculate on the future success of artists and individuals. And that's whyI bought the Latasha one, because I believe in the future value of Latasha,whether or not the music at Ft is at all valuable at any point in the future.

[00:26:59] Ben: Yeah, that's really good. I

[00:27:00] Jesse: mean, but for. So

[00:27:03] Ben: for an investor, I mean, the timerequired to get to know these artists, the value that they're bringing theirvision, w w how they intend to like, change the world, what curation website,or what kind of sources could they use to, to short shorten that path, tofinding

[00:27:23] Jesse: those people?

I know Cooper just just released a music and Ft newsletterThat's probably got some, some good information for investors in it. I mean,Twitter, obviously, you know, who's talking, who's hyping their stuff up.There's really not many great ones. I mean, go on catalog and just click playand see what resonates with you.

You know, put it on the background than a few years. Somethingthat like you love then go buy it. But yeah, there's nothing, nothing greatright now in the music and have tea space for the amount of potential hype. Itreally has.

[00:27:57] Ben: Yeah, no, I mean, it's true, right? This,this is the hurdle for a lot of people wanting to get in because the advicefrom everybody is like, oh, you know, just spend 16 hours on Twitter.

And and, and a bunch of times within these these small circlesand that's kind of. Best way people have right now. Unfortunately, I'm curiouswhen like zooming out a bit more within the overall NFT landscape. So not justNFTs, what areas are most interesting to you at this point? And

[00:28:34] Jesse: one for the overall NFP landscape?


I don't know that there's a specific area necessarily. There'sa few projects that are super exciting and interesting because I think they'rekind of asking all the right questions and thinking all of the right things.You know, one of those being Anything that the fluff world touches I'm superbullish on, on what those guys are building.

I think they have kind of this vision for the metaverse that'sreally thoughtful. You know, they're working right now to integrate chat andall of that stuff into Mehta versus with the fluff world project and theseekers project You know, I, I know that they it's cause it's tough, right?Like if you look at the empty space, right?

Like you, you try to think of like, all right, well what's thefuture value of this, right? Well, the future value is that like, when I havemy, my metaverse house, I want to be able to put art on the walls. Right. Andlike, that's a fun game, but then like you start to go like, all right, well,where does my house is my house in the land?

Is it in sandbox? Is it. You know, the new April, that's goingto come out, like, where is it? Right. Is it a fluff world borough? How do allthese worlds interconnect? You know, I mean, maybe I asked too way too manyquestions, but like, you know, to me, that's the questions knowing asking it'slike, well, if I don't have a house, do I have to just like live on thestreets?

Can I not put my NFTs anywhere? Do I have to go to sleepsomewhere? Like, you know, like, is it worth spending half a million dollars,but really, but really, you know I'm really like what really excites me is whenthese things start to get tied to like, you know, real world assets, real worldvalue. The material project is interesting because it is using that FTS andtying them to real-world assets.

So essentially using blockchain as a provenance ledger I thinkwhat the Wilder world guys are doing is really interesting. You know, wherethey have a like fully or they're fully building out a world in unreal enginefive, and it looks a lot more like a video game than anything else right now.Which I think is a really solid approach to this space because, you know, likewe could pretend that like we have all these questions and such You know, likeI have, right.

But like, Hey, I'm like mostly not mostly joking, but like, I'mkind of joking about like these questions, but you know, it's like, when doesthe matter where bursts exist, right. And how do we get there? And what are,you know, what are the steps missing? Right. I think we're still have a hugehardware gap before the metaverse exists.

Because you could bet your ass that Facebook's not integrating.You know, all of these metaverses versus into the Oculus right away. Becausethat would defeat the purpose of Metta now, wouldn't it? So yeah, I don't know.I mean, the space as a whole is exciting. The creativity is exciting. Thedifferent projects that are starting to think about all of the composability isexciting.

I think what you guys are doing a charged particles is reallyexciting. Because again, it's just more, composability more tools, you know,more ways to build together. And that to me is the most exciting part is thiswhole concept of, you know, building together, building on pieces, because ifwe're just kind of.

I'm thinking that like, you know, well, the central is going tobe the metaverse or sandbox or whatever it is. Then how is it any differentthan you know, a Spotify or, or a Metta, right? Like that's, that's what I'mlike. I want to see people start anything. That's questioning that narrative oflike, you know, how does this stuff actually all work together versus like, Ineed to build it all in my metaverse.

Those are the most exciting projects to me,

[00:32:29] Ben: a hundred percent. No really good stuff.Well, Jesse, it's been a pleasure

[00:32:35] Jesse: having you on today. I think a lot

[00:32:37] Ben: of really good alpha drops for thelisteners. Where can they find out a little bit more about you

[00:32:44] Jesse: or where would you like to send them?Yes. So It's funny because I am like the anti shell and I will never get onstage and just constantly show my stuff.

But I do run a company called six, that XYZ. We are, we arebuilding our company basically helps artists navigate the metaverse helps, youknow, mostly working with larger artists at the most. But working to build kindof some tools and products that we believe can help musicians succeed in thisspace.

So it's that, website's six that XYZ, if you want to check thisout. And yeah, you know, I am I'm excited, you know, I think this whole spacein general is cynical as I am, is really exciting. It's never a dull day andyou know, if there wasn't something to be cynical against, then. It wouldn't beinteresting at all.

So you know, yeah, you're welcome. I welcome the cynic

[00:33:37] Ben: man. It's all

[00:33:37] Jesse: sunshine and rainbows

[00:33:38] Ben: and up into the right. So I really,really appreciate it when somebody kind of brings a dose of reality. I thinkit's an important gut-check but Jesse. It's been a pleasure. Really appreciate

[00:33:51] Jesse: having you on there.

You have it. Thank you for listening. I really appreciate yoursupport. Show notes, transcript links, and more can be found

[00:34:00] Ben: on

[00:34:00] Jesse: our [email protected].

[00:34:03] Ben: If you'd be so kind, please share

[00:34:05] Jesse: this with anyone you think might beinterested or

[00:34:08] Ben: get some value from this conversation. Ifyou have any questions or

[00:34:11] Jesse: comments, please reach out.

I'm always happy to hear.

[00:34:14] Ben: Lastly, if you're on YouTube, please likethe video or subscribe to the channel. If you're listening to the audio versionof this, please subscribe to the podcast and,

[00:34:23] Jesse: or leave a review. This really helpsmore people find the podcast. And I

[00:34:28] Ben: really appreciate it. Thanks again, andhope you have a fantastic day.

Happy investing.

Ben Lakoff is an entrepreneur and finance professional. He has developed strong global finance experience through 10 years of international assignments in the US, Brazil, Afghanistan, Southeast Asia, Czech Republic and through the award of his Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) certification.