Deep dive into Decentralized Finance with DeFi Dad.
Today’s interview is with DeFi Dad and we are doing a deep dive into Decentralized Finance.
Interested in knowing what DeFi is, where we are currently, why it’s important and where it might be going?
Don’t miss this episode.
Check out https://anchor.fm/investinalts for all the listening options (Spotify, Apple, etc.)
0:00:00 Welcome and context
0:01:27 Indiana reunion
0:04:26 What is your background?
0:14:25 How do you describe DeFi to a newbie?
0:20:50 What is the current state of DeFi?
0:38:41 What are the psychological impacts of the metaverse?
0:43:44 What does the future of DeFi looks like?
0:54:10 Do you see any difficulties of exiting crypto to FIAT currencies?
1:01:00 What areas in DeFi are most interesting to you?
1:10:14 Where can people find out more about you?
Ben: [00:00:00] Welcome to the alt asset allocation podcast, exploring alternative investment opportunities available to the everyday investor. Here’s your host Ben Lakoff.
Hello and welcome to the all to asset allocation podcast. Today’s interview is with defy dad. If you didn’t get the idea from his name, this episode is very much all about de-centralized finance or defy and defy dad.
Well, he he’s a dad. So defy dad is a SU defy super user and an educator. He tinkers and explains with all the wild experiments that are going on within the ecosystem. In crypto. I’ve known DVI dad for quite some time now and there aren’t many more people who are as plugged in to the inner workings of defy as he is.
Are you interested in knowing what defy is, where we are currently and why it’s important and where it might be going? You won’t want to miss this episode before you listen, please don’t forget to like, or subscribe to the podcast or even better leave a review. If you’re watching this on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and, or give this video a thumbs up.
These little things really help. And I really, really appreciate it. Alright. Defied dad on decentralized finance. Yeah. Did you find dad excited to have you on today? What people didn’t see was about 30 minutes of us catching up beforehand, but yeah, excited to officially start the podcast now. And have you on, it’s been a long time.
DeFi Dad: [00:01:34] Yeah, man. No, thanks for having me. We are, we’ll probably talk about this at one point or another, but we, we have a lot in common just having grown up in a, we both grew up in the great state of Indiana, so we don’t live there anymore, which is normally what happens to too many people live in India. But yeah, no, it’s I still feel like you’re one of my high school friends that I like.
It’s easy to catch up with you and just. Shoot the shit like we’re back in there. So
Ben: [00:02:04] it’s awesome. Well, you played a sport in college too, right? That’s how that conversation came up because it was, yeah, it was a, this is one of those things. So for my listeners, I’ve known you a defy dad for a while now.
I obviously don’t call you defy dad when we’re not on a podcast. I think
DeFi Dad: [00:02:21] because that would be, we can call me daddy.
Ben: [00:02:25] One of those things is true. But yeah, you know, it’s, you’re one of these people from the internet, from the space who now, you know, I, I know you, but I haven’t officially met you in person.
That is so funny. You’re
DeFi Dad: [00:02:37] right. Crazy. We’ve never met them, but yet I know
Ben: [00:02:41] station of where you from never really came up until it was kind of an auxiliary part of a story or something. It’s always interesting to find out, oh shit, we grew up in the same state. It’s wild.
DeFi Dad: [00:02:53] Yeah. It’s this even goes to, this is probably one of the things we should talk about is the, the Ethereum or like greater defy community.
It’s kind of like a digital nation. And I moved to, I’ve mentioned this to you of course, before, but we moved across the country about a year ago from the west coast to the east coast. And I am normally a very social person. Obviously we moved during COVID. So I haven’t really been able to meet as many people until recently, but actually I think it stems more from like this like incredible problem of.
The Ethereum greater defy community has introduced me to so many friends online. Like I’ve I have so many friends like this where we’ve we haven’t met, but we obviously we work together. We, we talk a lot and I have more in common with the, this community. So I’ve I’ve like jokingly said, like we don’t have many people over to barbecue anymore because again, a lot of my friends don’t live locally, but weirdly barbecue do it.
But weirdly enough you feel like a stronger kinship with, with people across the world, to the point, there’s a number of people I didn’t even know where they lived and had really gotten to know them well and was like, oh wow. You’re in Singapore, Malaysia. I had no idea, I guess, I guess we won’t be meeting up, you know, at any conference anytime soon.
But yeah, so. I’ll give it back to you, Ben. Yeah, no,
Ben: [00:04:21] For my list, there’s, I mean, this is all about alternative investments. Crypto is one part of this and defy is certainly increasing segment within crypto. For my listeners, within our space, you’re a fan. Defy dad, but for those other listeners that maybe don’t know that
DeFi Dad: [00:04:39] you don’t have that I’m famous.
That’s like, if I say this all the time, if my wife like heard that, she’d be, like he said, he’s actually,
Ben: [00:04:52] you’re like, have you seen my Twitter? People, people appreciate me. Oh, but right. For,
DeFi Dad: [00:04:57] for my listeners, let’s, let’s hear a little bit of
Ben: [00:04:59] your background and how you got into crypto and what you’re doing now in the space, I think would be helpful to set the context for that.
DeFi Dad: [00:05:07] Yeah. Yeah. I honestly the origin stories origin stories in general, I think they’re, they’re always good to remind everyone, like we all sort of start in a similar place, not really knowing much about crypto. And so the sooner you get started and dive down the rabbit hole the better. So, so my background is Many many years ago I was in chemistry.
There’s actually a lot of people in the physical sciences that ended up finding their way into crypto. A lot of PhD dropouts are former engineers. And anyways, I ended up starting to work in software after I left the chem PhD program. And you know, I kind of worked a bunch of typical software jobs which eventually led me to the bay area.
So I, I worked in some very typical sort of Silicon valley type jobs. I didn’t work for Salesforce, but you could think of some of the companies I worked for kind of like a Salesforce and around 2017. So I, I, this is when I got into crypto. So I, I still think of myself as being a relatively new person to the space.
Even though now it’s been about four years. So I started hearing about a theory, them and Bitcoin, and my friends had mentioned, you know, based on the sort of stuff you love, which was like, whether we were talking about like politics or in this case, like governance, I’m talking about talking in general just about like money the economy and so on.
They’re like, you would love this stuff. You, you gotta dive into it. So, because I worked in software where the idea was you normally would sell something like a platform, like a Salesforce, and then you could plug in all these different applications. So when I started to learn about Ethereum, a lot of light bulbs went off in my head.
It was like, wow, this is. This is software that no one essentially owns. It’s like a platform that is run by a community. But then I, I definitely, from the start had this idea of we’re going to see all these applications explode. And each one that comes out is going to sort of strengthen the other use cases.
And, you know, you’ll over time, you’ll build a stack of these that you come to depend upon. And, and, you know, we’re in the early days of this, it’s just, it’s hard to foresee that. But so I, I was trying to connect what was like enterprise software, which is the world I was in with what I was seeing with money applications that would come to a theorem.
And I would say by the end of 2017, I bought a little bit of crypto. I, I wasn’t really I wasn’t like a big bag holder or anything yet. Like most people like a genius because it was a bull market. And what little I did buy, went up in price. And then it all came crashing down in 2018. But in mid 2018, I started working at consensus.
I was going to meet ups. I was listening to podcasts. I went to some live theory conferences. And I just sort discovered, you know, that I had a lot in common with a lot of people in the audience who just really felt like, you know, the world could be a better place. Not that we need to, you know, burn it all to the ground, but that, like, there is a fairer world.
If you can build a newer finance system that sort of emulates the way that we use the internet, where you can do all sorts of powerful things by just having an internet connection money, however, is like one of the missing constructs of that internet. And I ended up working at consensus then for about two years.
I got to work across a bunch of different projects. You know, it was it was a, it’s a very interesting place to have gotten started at, cause it was in the middle of the bear market and. If you can, if you can get started working now or in what whenever we do have a bear market, if we’re in a bear market now it, it’s just a wonderful time to be a part of a team building because you focus on what is the end goal.
That’s so much further out in the future and you, you stop worrying about the short term price action. Like you, you focus on the mission. And so anyways, I had a good run there with consensus kind of working in like a marketing project management role. And then I ended up working my whole last year of that two year stint on the authorial summit.
And that was like a, a bunch of global events that we would do, whether it was in New York or we did one in Tel Aviv. And before the pandemic, we were planning to do lots more, but those turned into virtual conferences and I got to meet a lot of cool people. It was funny because it was kind of coming full circle for me at the time I had gone to an a theorial that was sort of the tipping point for me, realizing that I’m I’m up late at night, reading white papers, listening to podcasts, reading CRISPR book, crypto assets, and.
I’m obsessed. Like I have to work in this space, but the theorial event in San Francisco really is what convinced me. Like I have to, I have to start over in this new industry. And and then funny enough, I got to work on it. So I focused on storytelling you know, creating a lineup that would get people excited to want to build on Ethereum, which is actually how you and I got to know each other.
Cause you were at two key at the time. And and then finally that led in, in mid 2019, I was simply, you know, one of many people holding ether and Bitcoin. And I was prepping, you know, these lineups and trying to get to know the speakers, trying to understand like, what are the topics that we should be talking about at an Ethereum focused event.
And, you know, defy was starting to become like a term that was widely understood to mean like money applications on Ethereum. And so I was prepping for the event by trying out all the applications and then meeting the speakers and, you know, proposing that they, that they present. And my background had really been, you know, I was a salesperson at one point and kind of worked in like a solutions engineer role.
So my whole, my whole job was demoing software. I never thought I would actually get to use that skill set for. I thought that was like 10 years out. Suddenly the summer of 2019, I’m trying compound, you know, maker had been working for quite a while by that point. I remember trying to pull together. I tried Ziri on for the first time to track my portfolio.
Anyways, my mind was sort of blown. I was oh, token sets too was another one. So I’m using these. And now I’m starting to like brag to my family and friends like Ethereum works like this is real. So I started to tweet about it and sort of share all of the daily escapades of trying the applications and write up tutorials and write up threads.
And eventually I don’t know that caught wind, that caught fire with. Get coin grants. I was able to get some support from that. And I started a YouTube channel and the videos I think, helped to propel more people’s interest in trying these. And, and then I finally ended up at zapper. So for the last year, I actually have worked full full-time at zapper, which has been really a life changing career changing experience zapper in case anyone’s unaware.
It’s like a dashboard for your defy portfolio, just connect a wallet or connect as many wallets as you want. And you can visualize where your assets are. You can visualize, you know any of your debts and what’s the net worth of your portfolio. And you can do that on theory on BSC Phantom. Or polygon.
So I’ve been there the last year working in sort of like a marketing customer support strategy type role. And now I am an advisor to zapper, so I’m going to be focusing a little more on just trying to help as many projects as I can. And yeah, excited to do.
Ben: [00:13:03] Yeah. I actually had said on back in September of last year was when I published it, but right in the middle or early days of defy summer, probably like June interviewed SAB of zapper.
That’s episode six of the, to asset allocation. If you want to learn more about Sapper. And recently I just had Mariano all about maker and dye and their importance and role within the whole greater defy crypto ECOS ecosystem. So definitely some, some, some good stuff in there. I love what you were saying about, you know, redesigning the system in a more efficient, fair way.
And this utopian dream that kind of pulls us all together within this space. On, on your Twitter, you describe yourself as a defy super user and educator. We’ve talked a bit on this podcast about defy, but how, how do you explain defy to a newbie when, when you’re talking about going crazy about this?
Like how do you, how do you break it down to them? Yeah.
DeFi Dad: [00:14:03] Yeah. It’s it’s it actually starts, I think with asking them questions. What’s their background in terms of do they have a bank account? Like do they trade stocks? So I, I, if, if I, I don’t know someone, I would more generally describe you if I, as it is a, it’s a new alternative to the banking system, but it’s built with software that is more often than not run on a theorem.
And these are, these are money applications that allow you to transact peer to peer and they use the assets or the tokens or whatever you want to call it. They are digitally scarce. So if you can wrap your mind around the concept of. People talk about Bitcoin as digital gold. You could also call ether digital gold as well.
Once you understand that simple sort of like I’ve got something that we all recognize as valuable and it’s provable that it’s scarce. And I have a claim on that asset, you apply that ethos to defy or to, to what we’re building with defy and it’s everything from trading to lending and borrowing and options and insurance.
And, and then you have. W we’ll go down the rabbit hole, of course, with projects like charged particles, which we also work together on. And, and suddenly you’ve got this idea of digital goods, which is really, what’s going to power the future of the metaverse, you know, at the end of the day, defy is defy.
And you know, again, if you’re familiar with just, what is Bitcoin, what is ether? This is built for a digital first world. We currently live in. Like, you know, this meathead world where, you know, we meet up in person and, you know, you, you go to a coffee shop and you, you know, you pay someone in cash or you can transact with a credit card.
But all of the payments that we use in that, in our world, they’re essentially bandaid solutions to a world that doesn’t have little money. So all the banks, at least in the U S basically have their own like software system. And then there’s a different software that sort of connects all of them. And these, that software in many cases, it’s a very old system.
And that’s part of the reason, like if you. Receive a check or if, even if you Venmo someone, something the money doesn’t actually clear for normally a few days. And that’s because we’re dealing with this old antiquated system, that’s sort of like, you know, it’s, it’s like technically behind the scenes, everything’s running as slow as possible, but we’re talking about a system where FinTech has sort of made it all look pretty.
That’s what FinTech did. FinTech took the old shitty money system and it put a new Polish on it. And so we said, oh wow. Like my money is digital now, but it’s not, you know, it’s, you’re, you’re just transacting in a bunch of IOUs. Whereas if you and I send stable coins to one another, that’s it, you know, that’s instant money that we can send 24 7, 365.
And it’s, it is, I, I want to say that defy fits. There’s there’s two really different personas that I think about. One of them is people that have the privilege to choose to use defy. So that’s me. That’s you, that’s all, basically anyone in the U S I would, I would say has the privilege of living in a country that even if you are upset with the government and you disagree with them at times, we have a privilege of w we can normally depend on the fact that, like, our money won’t be seized overnight from some like authoritarian regime.
There are other people though, who desperately need defy, who desperately need, you know, a digital store of value that they can transfer without anyone having access to it and being able to take it away from them. And those are, those are people in other parts of the world in a lot of developing countries.
So that’s probably where, like my. My, my like mind and my heart are in it for that long-term. But right now we’re still in the early, like tinker phase of defy where, you know someone like me, even though I started with very little money in defy you know, I, I, I, at least again, I was not having to escape an authoritarian to hide my money in in a a digital payments network.
I was, I was basically able to say, you know what, instead of using my bank, which I, I trusted already, I’m going to start using defy to make alternative investments. And we’re just starting to hit this inflection point where the user experience has become friendly enough that anyone should be able to transact as long as they have an internet connection.
Ben: [00:18:59] Absolutely no, and some great stuff there. I think it’s all of this and I’ve been transacting almost exclusively in crypto over the past, probably year and a half. And I had to send out a bank transfer the other day. I’ve forgotten what one to three business days feels like when there’s a holiday weekend and all the things and the ability for instant finality.
Hey, defy dad, do you need $10? I’ll send it in less than $10, 10 minutes. It’s in your wallet held there, like ownership has been transferred to you. Just re-imagine this whole financial system with that in mind is so powerful. You mentioned that we’re kind of in the early stages of defy and tinkering and I agree.
Yes. Are kind of smack dab in the middle of all of these massive trends in all of this innovation that’s happening. Maybe just backing up, I mean, this is mid July, 2021. What is give me like a current state of defy what’s happening. What’s what’s needed just spell it out a little bit more for me.
DeFi Dad: [00:20:11] Yeah. Yeah. So a year ago, one of the most exciting topics was the idea of yield farming. And for anyone that’s new to this yield farming or liquidity mining, it’s basically. Getting paid to be an early user. And in most cases you have to like, you have to lend some money or the providing liquidity is essentially just lending money, but providing liquidity is the, is the formal way to say it.
And so you’re, you’re getting paid to be an early user. And, and so that was a year ago. And even a year later, There’s so many programs. I mean, at this point, there’s, there’s hundreds of these programs. Some of them have better returns. Some of them are easier to earn with because maybe they require just stable coins.
So like, if, if, if you’re sitting in dollars and if a good example, I’m trying to think of one. I just did let’s see some have
Ben: [00:21:08] different risk return profiles as well. Some of them are very risky and pay 10000% APY. Some of them are not that risky and they pay 1,008 people. I, and it’s, it’s like a hidden gym, so, but definitely a number of different ones.
DeFi Dad: [00:21:23] Yeah. And I think that, so this concept of providing liquidity, it in a way is similar to a. If you were an early user of a software, I always use Facebook as an example, Facebook came out around the time that I was in college. So I was an early user. I was one of the first universities to use it. I’ve never seen any return from.
No, I didn’t get like an airdrop of Facebook stock when they went live. But that is essentially what happens in defy. Defy applications need liquidity to be successful in almost every scenario. And so these these protocols are these decentralized communities they’ll pay you to provide liquidity or essentially to lend money.
And so, I mean, it’s, it’s been a remarkable opportunity. If you can find a protocol or an application that you really believe in, you know, like I would give an example, charged particles. I can go in and provide liquidity to the program that you guys are running. I can either stake the Ionix token, or I can provide liquidity in the Ionix eith pool and, and stake that, that token staking, by the way, just means deposit.
If anyone’s new to that. So what am I doing here? I’m locking up tokens, but if I am already long, that token, if I believe that charged particles is going to be a successful project and I want to accrue more of it, well, this is a hell of a win for me because. I’m already holding the token. So I might as well provide liquidity and allow other people to potentially gain access to it that strengthens the project.
And then in the meantime, I’m being rewarded in this case, your guys’ program is weekly, so I’m getting a weekly disbursement of these tokens. And so th these one of the keys to me a year from last summer, so summer of 2020 was a lot of people losing their minds, discovering that they can earn money this way.
And there was a lot of new projects that were. You know, vaporware that launched amidst some very blue chip projects, but there were a lot of projects that were just forking launching a new token, and then people were providing liquidity while receiving this new inflationary token. And what’s changed is I think we’ve learned a year later that.
It is much better to understand that these returns are fleeting at a very high, like, you know, you can earn a thousand percent APY, but if you can only earn it for five days, take 1000 divided by 365 multiplied by five days. You’re not, you know, it’s still awesome, but you’re, it’s, it’s a fleeting opportunity.
So I think what’s what has changed is there’s definitely some more long-term thinking in the community now the market is obviously less bullish in July, 2021 than it was a year ago, a year ago, everything was just sort of up into the right now we’re sort of in this choppy range, but I can S I, you know, I can attest that my portfolio reflects.
Yield farming where I am. I am already long and a like a believer in that protocol. So yes, I’m trying to earn more of a, I’m trying to earn more. SNX I’m trying to earn more. Ionics I’m trying to earn a more curve. These, these are tokens behind protocols that I personally want to hold for years, so I no longer have to buy the dip.
I no longer have to essentially try to trade my stable coins or Fiat into a token. I’m actually sitting on, you know, certain tokens where I’m able to put them to work. So they’re productive assets that are continually earning me more money. That is the most like remarkable change from a few years ago, few years ago, it was get on a centralized exchange like Coinbase or Binance and trade your us dollars or whatever Fiat you’re in into that token.
And then when you’re done, when you think it’s gone as high as it’s going to go, if you’re, you know, if you’re a trader, you’re trying to sell back into that. Now we have over a hundred billion in stable coins just on a theorem. And so it makes it’s, it’s, it’s a different world because. Even those that are selling, you know, there’s nothing wrong with taking profits and selling tokens, but those that are selling are keeping their money on Ethereum or on polygon or on BSC, whatever chain and they’re they’re lending those tokens.
So the, the crypto world years ago was about the promise of us all adopting this on chain, you know, finance system. But the truth is that we were, we were taking advantage of this new network. That’s more global and more censorship resistant, but we’re all using crypto banks. So we basically reinvented the.
A bank that is willing to accept crypto and to exchange our, our dollars or other fiance for, for tokens. And then they would do the dirty work of actually transacting on chain. That has all changed now because now a greater majority of the community. I can’t actually, I can’t say for a fact that it’s a greater majority, but we know a lot more people are living in that system.
And I think you and I are a good example. I, I used to just hold some tokens. I even held them in like a, you know, a a hardware wallet. So I was, I really was like abiding by the ethos of like, you know you know, not your keys, not your coin. But now I’m living in the system. I mean, I, I have no intention of exiting it.
I actually, I, despite living in the U S like, I really don’t trust the fact that I can exit the system forever that at some point, like I may run into maybe a government that feels threatened. And, but the beautiful thing is, is I don’t have to worry about that right now. You know, like, although I am a law abiding citizen, I, I choose to live in this, this digital finance world that exists.
Most of my money is on Ethereum. I have a little bit now in polygon. And it, I, I will say it’s, it’s it’s not just about the ability. To like circumvent like an authoritarian regime or government for me, it’s about the new opportunity that you’re given. And, and I mean to say that so if, if you grew up in a family where you have a wealth manager, probably won’t give a shit about anything that I’m saying about this, but if you grew up where we grew up in Indiana, or you grew up in, in another part of the world where you know, you, your parents saw cash as, as like one of the most important things to hold and to hoard and to store there are so many opportunities to allow your money to earn more money.
And once you understand how that finance system works, how, how wall street and other parallels of wall street work around the world. You realize that there’s, there’s all this opportunity out there, but it’s about knowing that it exists. There’s, there’s an information asymmetry that keeps a lot of people out and I’m not accusing the legacy players of Mo maliciously keeping us out.
But I mean, now knowing what I know. Yeah. I like, I, I look at like the way that we grew up and I, I had a great childhood. I always felt like we were well off, but I look at the shitty products that my parents bought into the few of those you know, with retail banks you know, in the nineties, things like mutual funds that were really never returning great returns.
And I look at the opportunity that I have, knowing that I can be an angel investor. I look at the opportunity of what we have with defy though. And what it’s done is it’s, it’s opened up a door to basically rich people. Opportunities is, is the way defy opens up the door to becoming a market maker or liquidity provider is, is what we call it.
And honestly, if, if defy stopped innovating today, just what uni swap, what sushi swap, what balancer all the other automated market makers. What they offer alone is, is radical because they’re allowing you to basically take your assets, throw, you know let’s say ether and dye into a pool, allow people to trade, earn those fees.
And do it with any amount of money. I mean, the, these are, these are opportunities that technologically didn’t exist, but also didn’t exist due to certain regulation. And that’s the, that’s the part of defense. That really gets me the most excited is I think that a lot of a lot of people that are, that I’ve yet to discover defy their greatest hurdle will be understanding the opportunities that they missed in the legacy system.
It’s it’s more often than not, it’s not, what’s this new fangled defy stuff. Wow. That’s crazy that I’ve heard this over and over again. So people just, just move money here and there for the sake of trying to earn more of it. Like isn’t that kind of I’ve I’ve heard the, the the, the wording isn’t that kind of Ponzi like, no, this is how the finance system works.
Your, your problem is not, not understanding defy. Your problem is not understanding all the opportunity that would have existed. If you had $250,000, you know, at chase bank, then you could have participated in these. And so that, that is going back to your original question of like, what’s the trend. I, I th I’m amazed how educated the community has become.
Now. We’re super small still, and we need to grow a lot. And we, but we, we have come a long way in one year. We’ve gone from, from yield farming was such an odd concept to talk about. And there’s a lot of flaws in it. Like the fact that people are mercenary farming, they’re just collecting tokens. And then they’re dumping in, it puts sell pressure on the token and it sort of defeats the whole purpose of the liquidity mining program, but throw that out it’s early days.
We’re creating a system where all you need is the courage to connect your wallet and the ability to technologically navigate how to self custody in, in like an Ethereum wallet or up a magic wall or whatever, whatever wallet. So anyways, that’s an another, long-winded answer to a very unrelated, short question you asked now.
Ben: [00:32:28] No, I think that’s highly relevant. every investment decision you make, every allocation decision you make is an opportunity cost for another one. And your point about information assymetry is, is spot on. It’s actually, and that’s the purpose of this podcast, right? Is to talk about alternative assets alternatives to that 60, 40 portfolio of mutual funds and bonds that just doesn’t work anymore, or it, it works, but there’s a lot of other options they can work better.
DeFi Dad: [00:32:59] And like we have to. We have to keep helping people to zoom out and understand that, you know, one of, one of the reasons one of the reasons I fell in love with charged particles, when, when I got to start talking with you guys about the project is defy, is, is again, it is not built. I said this earlier, it’s not built for the world we live in.
Now it’s built for a truly digital first world. It’s built for the metaverse. And so what a lot of people fail to understand is that we live in a world today where we’re, we’re hyper connected. You know, we’ve all got smartphones and iPads and half the stuff in my house. I can turn on my car now with my, with an app on my phone, which like blows my mind.
But the future to me is us living in a metaverse. And, you know, I think by the end of our lifetime, I think it’s gonna be. It’s it’s going to feel nearly as lifelike as us talking here where like, you don’t notice the heavy goggles on your face and, you know, basically everything just seems hyper real but even longer term.
I mean, God knows, like, I don’t know if that’s a dystopian or utopian way to look at like where we’re going and. You’re going to need a, a finance system. You’re going to need a money system that works. And, and that’s what defy is like, whether it’s it’ll probably look, I’m sure archaic today, you know, 20, 30 years from now, but that’s the world that we’re going to live in.
And if you buy into that, if you buy into the fact that like, even like countries, like the idea of like, I live in the United States, I think these things start to sort of melt away these constructs when you live in a digital world. Cause like, I can tell you this, I can communicate, you know, you and I are 3000 miles apart, but like I did a podcast with Bobby from coin gecko a few months ago.
And I mean, man, like I’ve only, I met him a few times, but like, I feel like I have more in common with him than a lot of my closest friends that live near me and That that’s the world I want to live in that that’s the world where it no longer matters that you’re lucky that you are born in a certain part of the world.
I still feel lucky. I was born in the United States as compared to. Other parts of the world where maybe, you know, you grew up without electricity. That’s, that’s, you know, that is, you know, lucky sperm club. And I want to eliminate that lucky sperm club by making it more possible for us to live in a digital world.
If you choose to maybe the world that you live in sucks, maybe you live in like a two by two foot looking garage, like in ready player one you should be able to easily escape that and meet other people, discover opportunities. That’s what the, I thought the internet was about. And I think that’s what defy is helping the internet.
It’s helping it’s coming for your money now. You know, we, we, we ate up a lot of the old world with the internet. You know, whether it’s Amazon destroying a lot of small businesses or you could look at it as it made it easier for anyone to order whatever goods they want. This is coming now for money.
We’re, we’ve, we’ve accomplished a lot with the internet, but defy is, is, is giving us that, that missing piece that forces us to depend on the legacy world. And yeah, yeah, I can just go,
Ben: [00:36:31] no, this is the difference between internet 1.0 2.0 and now 3.0 which is where we’re, we’re going with all of these things.
I’d be curious, the psychological impacts of a metaverse and spending so much time in the digital realm will be profound as well. And something that I think will be a interesting hurdle for us as humans going from this in-person society that we’ve been doing for a long, long time to something more digital first.
I think that will be an interesting hurdle
DeFi Dad: [00:37:07] as well. I, I like I, the timing of this podcast is perfect. Cause I’ve been like the last, I had a few conversations over the last day and it’s just my like brain has been exploding. I talked with the founder of Ali thea.ai. So I’m this RF con a R I F K H a N a.
And then Ali Thea’s a L E T H E a.ai. So they’re creating intelligent NFTs are inf teas. So everybody’s gotten excited about crypto punks and board apes. And I mean, at the end of the day, these are all pictures that are. Digitally scarce. And, you know, in this case they live on the Ethereum blockchain.
And that’s cool. Like I love, you know, I think all these things are really cool. I love digital art. That’s you know, it’s powered by Ethereum, but I mean, what could be better than bringing those to life? And so, you know, When you go down the rabbit hole of like, what’s next, there’s just so much that we’re, we’re going to experience in the next 10 years that people are unaware of.
And one of those is so Ali Thea is able to basically impart a unique personality using AI. Two pieces of art and those, those pieces of art now can talk to you. They can talk to one another. They can own assets, like they could eventually own a charged particle, which in case anyone’s unfamiliar with it’s, it’s basically it’s being able to nest assets.
So it’s essentially, if we have a charge particle that is like, imagine a piece of art, that’s an NFT and I deposit some ether into it. And now it’s charged so long story short. These I NFTs, which can talk to you. Like there’s a Darth Vader one, you can have a conversation with it. And honestly, the hardest part about this is it’s just weird to talk to AI and realize that you can ask it whatever you want.
And, and it, it, it has its own personality. It will remember things that you’ve said. Like, if you remind it to, to tell you to take out the garbage or that you have an appointment. And, and so anyways, we have these inf tees that are going to live in a digital world. So we’ve got the metaverse where we’re living in a virtual reality.
We’ve got money coming along with defy. We’ve got NFTs, which are digitally scarce goods. And then we’re already starting to see AI get combined with this. So now you’re bringing to life like you, you can do crazy sorts of things. You can bring to life, a piece of art, but like, I would love to upload my consciousness to something by the end of my lifetime.
Like, I, I, you know, I hear people talk about, oh, it’d be so dystopian to live on forever. Not me. I would love to do that. That’s cool. And I think it would be really cool to be able to upload your consciousness to to something like in this case an NFT could be like, I mean, it could be an IFT with a robotic body and maybe that’s how you like live on forever.
So th this, but this is all, this is all to paint a picture for someone. Like defy is not just some alternative investing platform. Defy is the future. Defy will power. All of the different things that we know exist in our banking system. You know, I have no doubt. I think the banks are going to shrink like small businesses did over the last 10, 20 years.
We’re going to see. We’re going to see bank shrink by, you know, 95%. And many of them I think are going to actually go out of business. And I I look forward to that actually. I don’t, I have no remorse about that. Cause I I do have a chip on my shoulder with some of the banks, so
Ben: [00:41:00] yeah. I love it. I love it.
Really powerful stuff. Going back to defy, I love from the idea logical standpoint, and I think that’s very important, but for this just focusing like on the investment opportunities for people, and then, then I think they do tumble down the rabbit hole and find out more about this future utopian state that we dream about and think about.
But I mean, right now, a lot of this is. Information assymetry it’s lending rates are high because borrow rates are high because the demand is high to do these lending and borrowing activities. I’m curious, what does the future state of defy look like? As more people come in, I’ve talked to multiple people like traditional world people that are launching defy, yield, farming funds, you know, which is terrifying.
But so it’s, you know, more, capital in the system, driving down these rates like already. Lending rates are down significantly before it was super easy to find 25, 30%. And now like, yeah, there’s just a few and kind of your like five to 15 range is more of like the, the blue chip sort of rates.
What does defy look like in the more near term from like an investment perspective?
DeFi Dad: [00:42:23] I think, yeah, I think what you’re describing then is it’s cyclical. And a year ago we were at a, at a high where the demand for stable coins and the, the, the ability then to lend it. It was at a point where you, you could lend, let’s say U DC for 20, 25% or higher, just on something like Ave, one of the largest, you know, lending, borrowing protocols.
But today the ecosystem, God, like, I want to think back to, let me check . A year ago. I’m just going to look at the chart here a year ago, total value locked and take this with a grain of salt it’s in USD and the USD value of all assets gone up a lot as well, but it was about 2.3, 9 billion. And that was just on Ethereum at the time.
And now, gosh, I’d have to check defy Lama as well, but defy pulse mostly reflects Ethereum and we’re at about 57 billion. So whatever that is, whatever multiple that is like 20, 25 times or more so 25 X from a year. I, so I I’ve, I’ve heard that this argument that, yeah, the more money that comes in obviously it, it.
The more money that’s there. The less likely you are to have this asymmetric opportunity to be able to lend and earn higher rates. But I think what that fails to acknowledge is all of the new opportunities that are coming. And so right now we’re, we’re in this weird spot where the market’s very choppy.
Everyone is like debating, are we in a bull or a bear market? There’s clearly people that are somewhat afraid. So they’re getting into stable coins and those stable coins are then being lent. So it makes a lot of sense. There’s a lot of supply of stable coins to lend because people are they’re, they’re moving into stable coins thinking that, you know, the market could potentially go down from here.
But again, that’s just a snapshot of where we are today and we all know that crypto is a very reflexive market. And so if we, you know, if, if we were to start to test all time highs or move back to all time highs on ether and Bitcoin and essentially everything would follow I have no doubt. Like we will start to see that surgeon demand again, to borrow, to create leverage positions in defy.
And so rates will start to skyrocket again. That being said, throat, let’s just throw the market out of sack and, and, and talk about the fact that you know, we’re in a unique place where. Four years ago, we really had no applications to use on a theorem. It was just all a bunch of pie in the sky type stuff, but now we’ve matured into an ecosystem defy in general, extending beyond Ethereum is over a hundred billion in total value locked.
So we’re at a place now where no one’s going to the exit doors. You know, like even those that are the most bearish today on the, it doesn’t matter what you’re thinking about the market. Those people are not taking their money and moving it back to Fiat. They’re leaving it on chain. So. What I’m finding, like one of the trends lately is that there, there is a lack of appreciation for how many opportunities are actually out there.
Now, part of my job is to look for those opportunities. And then I’m trying to share that, you know, and like create tutorials and say, Hey everyone, you know you can earn 45% right now with inverse finance. If you deposit your stable coins, the rate will probably get demolished once that goes out, you know, but these rates are still holding up in many cases, you know, above 20%, well, above 10%.
So I think like my, my takeaway today, and I, I would caveat this with this, you know, this is not investment advice. I’m not a financial advisor and make sure you do your own research. My take personally with my own portfolio has been that I’m overwhelmed. There’s so many opportunities to earn with just stable coins, which is easy, you know, stable coins.
At least my biggest risk then is going into something that is a scam or something that fails because of like an Oracle failure or like a smart contract bug. So right now I think is actually one of the best opportunities to get into defy because when you look around, if you follow me or, you know, you should subscribe to the defiant, you should subscribe to Eve hub to the daily gateway to bank lists to your podcast to there’s there’s so many places you can learn check out, learn.zapper.fi.
If you inundate yourself, All of the opportunity in this space, I guess, and T you, you all, you will stop paying attention to whether the market prices are going up and down, because what you hold can be productive and can earn. And so that’s, that to me is I’ve got like a hundred tabs open and it kills me there’s opportunities.
I would love to get into where I’m like, I actually, there’s one on Badger right now with, I think the curve token and maybe the CVX convex curve token, I swear it’s like 60 or 70% just to deposit that token. But those tokens of mine are actually locked up in other opportunities. And even though I could pull them out, I’m like, well, I don’t know if this rate’s going to hold up.
And this other farm is doing well. And I like the other projects token that I’m earning. So th this is a day in the life of anyone living in this space. However one last, yeah, just the humble farmer. I would S I would remind everyone too, like, I, I have been very grateful to continue to like work full time with I worked with consensus.
I worked with zapper. I’m sure I’ll be working full time with another team here soon. I, I definitely, I salute those who can be full-time yield farmers. To me. This is about augmenting my ability to, to earn tokens that I want to sit on longterm. If your goal is to be long, this space, which I would tell anyone, you are crazy to bet against the defy space and not having exposure in my opinion is betting against it.
You would, you know, you have all this opportunity to be able to. To be able to put assets to work stuff that you already would hold. Essentially, if I have Google stock, I in the defy world, I can stake my Google stock and earn more Google stock. That concept is radical to people who are new to the space.
They’re like, wait a sec. Well, I was already holding the Google stock cause I’m already long Google and you’re like, you mean I can earn more of it just for luck. Yeah. Well, how long do I have to lock it up for, in most cases you don’t w I don’t, I have to keep it in there a certain amount of time. No. What about my rewards?
Do my awards vest in most cases? No, I guess that’s how, like, everything is liquid and available to do whatever you want with, and that’s, that’s, that’s the While we’re still a hundred billion dollars in total value locked. You shouldn’t be complaining that the markets have calmed down recently. You should be taking advantage of learning, diving into projects that you already were long on checking to make sure that they are like continuing to deliver on their promises, deciding where to put your assets, to continue to earn more of those of those assets.
So, oh, and you can go to tri zapper.fi/farm. That’s one of the best places. It aggregates about 600 opportunities as of today. So you can just search by protocol or token. And you know, if you’re like, I like have a search Ave and it’ll show you all the different opportunities that are related to the
Ben: [00:50:39] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a great resource for this cause and you drop some, some great like beginner resources. I mean, banquets, defiant, defy dad. There’s a lot of them out there that really can help you navigate through all of these because there’s a lot something you brought up that I thought was really interesting.
I mean, there’s a hundred billion dollars worth of stable coins and that people don’t exit back to like the. Normal world once they’re kind of in, because why wouldn’t you, I mean, you have 0.1 yeah. Percent APY on your savings account and you can put it in something that’s rather secure. I’m doing bunny quotes for those listening, but and, and earn 5% pretty easily.
It’s a gigantic difference, but I’d be curious. I mean, do you see a larger issue more of a corralling, the crypto space and making it more and more difficult to exit back to the fee system, because ultimately we’re still paying taxes and fee it. Eventually you have to come back at least to pay some taxes.
How do you think through the risk of like, I don’t know that it’s cutting off all of the feet on and off ramps and making it harder and harder and harder to, to exit back to Viet.
DeFi Dad: [00:51:56] Do you then do you mean like, like what if it becomes harder because of like regulation too? Yeah, that’s something, I mean, as I’ve, so I’ve been paid for the past year, I was paid in stable coins.
And you know, I was, it was something that like, I actually, I personally love about zapper. I love the idea of like, dogfooding. You know, and using all of the tools that we, you know, harp about being the future of finance, we do.
Ben: [00:52:28] We don’t even have a bank account.
DeFi Dad: [00:52:30] Yeah, it’s funny. We joke at zapper right.
As a right in the last few months, the team finally just got up a bank account as well. And you know, actually Seb sub who’s, the co-founder Seb audit. I think his Twitter handles Seb audit 26 Seb recently was tweeting about the fact that he was applying for a home loan. I think he’s trying to buy his first house.
I just bought my first house too. So we were sort of talking about how challenging it is. Because, and, and granted, like, I don’t want to like this. Isn’t like, we don’t need to play a sad violin for either of us, but I can attest that both. I were very frustrated by how you apply for a mortgage. And the fact that I have no idea what sub’s portfolio looks like, but all I know is he was having a lot of trouble.
Like I was when he applied, you know, it was essentially like a lot of what he owns isn’t really recognized unless he sells it to stable coin. I went through the same thing. I had to season money before I could actually use it. So I had to sell some crypto show proof that I sold it to. I mean, it’s very like exhausting show where it came from that, you know, I’m not a drug dealer or like a weapons dealer.
And anyways, that that money then sits in an account and You know, I mean, long story short, I think one of the, the risks yeah. Of, of this world, but also part of the reason there’s a lot of reward in it is that we are still dependent upon the old system. If you’re Mariano, Conti and you live in Argentina you know, Mariano talks about the fact that he keeps everything in defy and then he exits to pay things like rent.
Or if, I don’t know if he has a mortgage, something like that. I do the same sort of thing. I used to live in fiance and I had a smaller proportion in, in defy. But then over time, you know, you’re looking at the rates and you’re saying, okay, I can lend my stable coin to curve and earn 10 to 20% on any given day.
And then I can insure it for 2.6% for essentially almost anything happening. Everything is essentially covered if I do it through nexus mutual. So now I’m fully insured. I’m lending at a super high rate, like, like a hundred X compared to what I could earn in a bank account, which is like, I think my bank was like 0.05%.
So, you know, what happened was you start to move money around and that’s what I did. I moved my money into defy and I’m definitely not going back. And the scariest thing to me is what happens if they make it if the, if whoever regulator or government makes it very difficult. My hope and my optimism though, is that I think that.
I think that my experience has been that anyone who gets educated on defy and, or just the simpler concept of like ether or Bitcoin as a store of value, once they start to understand it, you realize that. This is not a threat against I don’t think of it as a threat against the U S government. My God.
The fact that stable coins depend on the U S dollar peg, if anything, I think it like reinforces this idea of the U S dollar. And so of all governments, I feel like the us should be the most supportive of this. It’s it’s essential Nikki in the U S dollar more available to everyone across the world.
People who might’ve not had access to it because of a government’s regulation. So anyways, that’s. That’s that is a scary idea that you mentioned of like, it, it, it makes me a little bit worried. But I guess I’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. And I’m, I’m, I’m, that’s part of the reason I’m so focused on education, as I’m hoping.
I mean that there are thousands of other people who joined the movement of trying to teach and and educate others, whether they’re a Senator or whether they’re, you know the person that, you know, made, made my coffee at Starbucks the goal is to get everyone understanding how defy works so that they can have an opportunity to participate in it.
And, and I think if people are educated, they’d, they’ll start to realize, Hey this, this is the future. This is like fighting the internet back in the nineties, you know? Like, do you want to be on that side of history? Or do you want to be on the side? Yeah. That realized we’re moving towards a more digital first world.
A metaverse that, you know, dissolves borders and a money system that can thrive in that future metaverse yeah.
Ben: [00:57:25] Yeah, no, I totally agree. All right. I’m curious right now there’s a lot of fun, interesting things happening with the defy. What areas are the most interesting for you and what is the most over-hyped overdone niche out there?
DeFi Dad: [00:57:45] Oh man. That’s what’s yeah, what’s most interesting. I’m not just, you know, it sounds like loaded me saying it because obviously like, I, I, as, as as a an Pfizer to charge particles, but I do think this hybrid of, of using NFTs alongside defy constructs is, is really interesting. And, and actually it’s become more normal lately in the community a few months ago.
Probably six months ago. I all, I could see this real divide between what is defy and what is NFTs. And now it feels like the communities have really merged together. I can at least attest the fact that like the defy community really seems to gravitate towards like trying to use an FTS. A good example is when, at Zappa, when we launched this gamification the ability to basically get rewarded for opening up your zapper portfolio, we rewarded people with NFTs.
So I that’s, that’s one concept. I’m trying to think another. I mean anything that improves the user experience is really interesting to me. So like there’s some picks and shovel plays and you know, full disclosure. I am an investor in the Ethereum push notification service, but I’m very excited. For us to be able to start to take some of what makes web to so addictive and to be able to use that in web three.
So if you if you have a smartphone you’re like me, you probably live off of your push notifications. Like, you know, I look at whatever’s on my phone and I tend to not check my email at this point point. I actually tend to just rely upon what I see there as to whether or not it’s important enough for me to open.
I also am accustomed in the web to world to just giving my email address to literally everything. So like my email is probably in a thousand different places, which leaves me vulnerable to having my information exposed if anyone gets hacked. But what I’m looking forward to. A tool like EPN S the Ethereum push notification service is if I have my money in August or charge particles or whatever, I can essentially subscribe with my wallet address and that’s it.
So now, now I, I skipped the email. I skipped giving up my personal information. It’s pseudo creates an identity for me on chain, and now I’m being alerted in real time of there’s a governance vote. You’re at risk of being liquidated on . There’s a new yield farm. There’s so much, so many instant communications that I would like to receive instead of going through Twitter discord or email in some cases.
So why is the future of money having to rely upon old constructs box of communication? There’s no direct communication in most cases for protocols, which I think is a really. Weird gap in the world that we live in. Like you can’t reach out to me. If, if your protocol gets hacked, that’s insane that you can’t reach out.
Like if you have 10 bills, I think Curver at this point have around 10 billion assets that is insane that they have to go on Twitter or discord just to get the word out versus in the field future. If you subscribe through the Ethereum push notification service, you would be able to instantly receive a notification on your phone.
Like, Hey guys, such and such has been hacked. This is where you can go to learn more. So tho those sorts of picks and shovels, I’d say a third, a third concept is liquid staking. So light oh dot five. Lido is a good example of this. It’s got like, oh my God. Lido has like, I have no investment in Lido two, and I’ll try to disclose if I ever am invested in something.
But Lido is, is where you can stake your ether. And you can earn about 5.8% APR in denominated in ether. So the rewards are more ether. So if you’re long ether, why would you not stake ether and be able to earn more of it? Lido has sort of led the way in terms of liquid staking, if you are an ETF Staker for.
Ethereum 2.0, there’s a lot of hard work. You gotta, you know, you gotta know how to set up a validator, which means like you gotta run a bunch of computer software and although this stuff isn’t super expensive, it’s, it’s a pain, you know, compared to just hitting the button and, you know, on your computer.
So I think liquid staking is, is another like untapped area of defy. And so there’s lots of platforms that have yet to go live that I understand are going to be going live in the next like six to 12 months. So thankfully I think we all owe some gratitude to Lido for sort of making that concept.
So like well-known in the community that you don’t, you can just basically swap your ether for staked ether, S T. It’s I’m Steph, you can do that on like a zapper exchange or you could go to like curve and that’s been, that’s been a huge opportunity. I’m trying to think. There’s one other one I had in mind.
So we talk about liquid staking picks and shovels coming to fruition in defy. You know, I want to, I’m like trying to think without like, too much bias to things that I, to that, that I own. I mean, okay. Here’s something, you know, full disclosure, I’m clearly invested in the NSM token by nexus, but I think insurance has barely seen it stay in defy.
A lot of treasuries in defy are uninsured, which is nuts to me because they’re earning like 10, 20% and their assets. If they’re an RV or compound, I get it. We all think of them as like the safest protocols, the blue chip protocols. But how are you going to explain to your investors or to your community?
That you lost X amount of money when you could have insured it for 2.6% annually. So I think insurance is, is very underdeveloped and nexus has been really trailblazing there. So I expect, I think the nexus mutual insurance will be incorporated into more products. Like it’ll just be a part of like a checkout you’ll click on curve to deposit some into some liquidity pool and you’ll have the option to add nexus insurance.
There’s also armor five, which allows you to stream continually run insurance until you no longer want to run it. Options is another area that’s pretty underdeveloped. But lots of activity there, you know, with open and hedges and ribbon, I think ribbons one of the coolest projects. I, I didn’t invest in it, but I do, I did earn something from the airdrop.
So take that with a grain of salt. I guess I have some, some upside, if that token ever becomes non, if it ever becomes transferable. But ribbon is like yearn for options selling. So yearn is what you just deposit into a vault. It does all sorts of things. You know, different investing strategies and you make money.
But, but ribbon is, is specifically for option selling strategies, which I will say be careful like there’s a lot of people that are getting into that sort of option selling strategy, exposure, not realizing that you can also lose. Selling options doesn’t mean that you always win. Like if the market goes against you, I mean, you’re going to lose.
So yeah, I think that’s about it, Ben. I mean, other than like anything that’s like future of work or like realizing a future that is more digital first, I think get coin continues to be one, get coins. One of the most important projects in crypto and good for them to have launched a token because they’ve, they’ve been working for years and I think it’s been a very thankless sort of role.
And I’m happy now that they have a token that allows the community to sort of own get coin and funding open source software. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I could go on and on, but those are some of the things that are really top of mind for me.
Ben: [01:06:16] Awesome. Well divided. I don’t want to keep you too much longer.
Where can I, and this has been great. And I think the show notes are going to be packed with goodies and different things to explore. That defy space, although we said it’s in the early stages, like clearly disintermediating and decentralizing and reinventing a lot of these things each of which deserves its own series of podcasts.
Because they’re just fascinating. Where can my listeners find out more about you or where, where would you like to send them?
DeFi Dad: [01:06:50] So two obvious places. One is go to defy dad.com D E F I D a d.com. That’ll just take you to my YouTube. My YouTube channel has a playlist called defy for beginners.
That would be what I’d recommend to anyone who’s who’s new to defy. Another one is ch you know, follow me on Twitter, defy, underscore dad. That that’s a good place. And gosh, actually, you know what also to worth sharing. I mean, I am I’m going to be joining it’s you know, common, common friend of ours.
I’m going to be joining it’s a more boutique defy fund, which is fourth revolution capital. So if you go to fourth revolution.capital I, I’m excited to join their team because I’ve known them for, for about a year now. And they’ve basically been friends that we talk about, you know, what’s the future of defy look like.
And they have a vision of really trying to like, build out that web three world that we talked about. Like, you know, that like, if we’re not gonna. Radically experiment and like push ourselves to an uncomfortable place. Like what’s the point of being here. So, yeah, I’m like really excited. So if anyone is interested, if you’re building a new defined protocol, like definitely go to fourth revolution.capital or just reach out to me on Twitter.
I’m always interested whether, whether you’re trying to raise money or if you’re just looking for some feedback, like I will as a part of my like commitment to get coin grants, I will continue to try to help as many teams as possible in defy, no strings attached to that. You know, one of the, one of the truths that a lot of people don’t realize is, I mean, if, if you get ahold of me I absolutely love to learn about new projects and I’m not a.
I would say I’m pretty generous with my time. I love to meet new people and, and kind of learn what they’re building. And, and if especially if it’s something that I can help other people to learn about, maybe create a tutorial. You know, all of that is that’s. That is a part of the work that I want to do for free for the community.
I believe it all sort of comes back to me in the form of some good. I don’t know whether it’s through the price of ether or whether it’s. Well, maybe I get to work with a team in the future as an advisor, so, yeah. Awesome,
Ben: [01:09:13] awesome, great stuff. And I’ll link up all of those things and stoked to finally have it public that you’re joining fourth revolution capital.
DeFi Dad: [01:09:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really excited to join them. And yeah, they’re, they’re an investor in, in charged particles as well. I mean, it’s funny because they’ve been investing in all these projects because we were, you know good friends and, and constantly in contact, so makes a lot of sense. And I think one of the cool things is they’re really hell bent on they’re they really believe in, in pushing forward on public education.
So I, I wanna just I think the goal is, again, like we need to, you know, we need to. We need to build a system where anyone living anywhere with any amount of money, as long as they have an internet connection, you should be able to participate in. And that’s that’s, what’s broken in, in the old world, but I think it’s gonna take time.
It’s not perfect yet, but I, I think we’re going to get there with defy.
Ben: [01:10:12] Awesome. Well, thank you, defy dad really appreciate you coming on and great.
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